53: Understanding EMFs: Ben Salem on Radiation Risks and Mitigation Techniques

Michael Kummer: You know, the, the main thing is that I hear a lot, you know, EMFs are everywhere in nature. You know, it's not something that humans have invented, right? 

Ben Salem: So I thought, is there a way to solve this? What was really fascinating is most of the things actually increased the radiation. Our kids have the cell phone in their pockets all the time.

They have the earbuds, then they have the iPad right over their lap, right? 

Michael Kummer: You know, the closer it is, the more energy can penetrate your tissue. So the dispersion, I guess, happens from the, from the screen out. Is that right?

There is no antenna right underneath the Apple logo, which is why you don't need to have a sticker there.

Is that right?

Ben Salem: I love your question. You're such an engineer.

Michael Kummer: Is there any impact on signal quality? 

Ben Salem: It's zero. You know, we've sold over a million of these. And we've never had any complaints with wireless charging, overheating, signal, none of that. 

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Michael Kummer: All right, Ben. Thanks for joining me on the show today. We've been working together for several years and I think your product was one of the most That made me think more about man made EMFs and the potential issues associated with it. You know, the main thing is that I hear a lot, you know, EMFs are everywhere in nature, you know.

It's not something that humans have invented, right? So what's the problem with EMFs, in particular man made ones? How are they different, or how has our exposure changed? I guess, our exposure level to the overall EMFs, you know, over the past decades, and why is that an issue? You know, let's maybe talk about that first, so we kind of set the baseline.

And then we can discuss some of the mitigation techniques that work to reduce your exposure, because let's be realistic, you know, getting away from all man made EMFs is not going to happen unless you're going to go, you know, and live in the bush all by yourself. Most people don't want to do that. Um, so what can you do and what are some of the things out there that you've seen are probably a bad idea, uh, to implement?

A, because, you know, they might not be working and it's just a waste of money. Okay. Uh, but more importantly, that can actually make the thing, make the situation worse and potentially harm you. Right. So let's, but let's start with what's the issue with EMFs and why do you even, maybe, maybe let's start where, why did you get into the EMF business at all?

You know, what's what you're, you're not, um, you're a real estate developer, right? So EMFs and real estate, those are not, you know, usually mentioned in the same sentence, right? 

Ben Salem: Kind of funny. I started, I started the business by accident. It was never supposed to be a business. Um, I was worried about my boys wearing earbuds during zoom classes, like during the lockdown, right?

With COVID, the kids are constantly wearing earbuds, going to school, wearing those earbuds, or then they ride their bikes. Now we go snowboarding. They're wearing those earbuds, then they're gaming, then they're falling asleep with those earbuds. And I remember learning in certain countries have banned Wi Fi from nurseries and in kindergartens Because they learn that that our kids their schools are much thinner than ours and they absorb 10 times the radiation as an adult school So knowing that and now thinking about my kids rocking the earbuds, they got my mind thinking How do I solve this?

You know, what's inside these earbuds? And I learned that you have 2. 4, basically like a 2. 4 wireless modem in each ear. That's what, what it is. That's what, how powerful that Bluetooth is. And they're talking to each other through my kid's skull. So they're shooting radiation back and forth, back and forth.

Michael Kummer: And you're referring specifically about probably those guys, right? The Apple EarPods. Yeah. 

Ben Salem: Yep. So I thought, is there a way to solve this? And what I did was I purchased everything that I could find on Amazon and tried, tried everything out. What was really fascinating is most of the things actually increased the radiation, which is really scary.

So 

Michael Kummer: imagine, what did you find like stickers or what did you come across and try? 

Ben Salem: So I tried weird gold stickers, silver stickers, plastic stickers with metal inside. And then, uh, weird stones that you're supposed to put near the phone or near your earbuds that are supposed to neutralize everything and reduce your pH level in your body.

I tried everything. And what was fascinating is that most actually increase the radiation. So do you remember, remember those old TVs before, before you and I were born? They had antennas on them. The old school like antennas and people would put foil on top of the antenna. That's basically what, what was happening was actually amplifying the signal.

Right. So, so after about six months of doing due diligence and not solving it and couldn't figure it out, um, an idea came to my head and it was, how do you break up the radiation or how do you break up EMF into particles? Is that possible? Has anyone done that before? And as I was researching it, it's never been done before.

So that's when I went on a mission to see, well, let's see if I could make this happen. And the idea came to my head just by, by accident. I was thinking about, you know, when I'm, you're standing in the ocean and a wave hits you, the wave is powerful enough to knock you over. When the wave hits the ground first and then you only get the mist, right?

And that's how the idea came on creating this product. So, um, so that's why I kind of got into the business by accident for, to protect my kids. But what's really fascinating is that, like, if you look at our, our parents and our grandparents, right? And that generation, they didn't have the exposure we had.

They had natural EMFs, right? Yeah. Sodom and other natural sources. Which they're just getting a little bit of, a little bit of, you know, they're just getting a little bit sprinkled, right? This is a different game now because now it's about the duration of time and the proximity that we have to our bodies.

So the duration of time is, okay, our kids have the cell phone in their pockets all the time. They have the earbuds right in their, in their brains. Then they have the iPad right over their lap, right? And they're, the parents are giving their iPad to the kids at a really young age. And then the kids are sleeping with the cell phone right near their head on the nightstand.

So that's what I'm saying. It's like the duration of time and the proximity to the human tissue is what got my mind going, right? And if you think about it, you know, if you, if you're, if your wifi router, right? Your wifi router is a couple of feet from your body, a couple of feet from where you sleep or right next to your office.

You're constantly getting that and it's pretty close. What is that going to do to us in the future, right? What right what is it now? You gotta remember the signal starts like this and then it opens up Mm hmm. So the further you're away from it the safer you are So if it's if you're if you want to take your cell phone and leave it in the in the bathroom or leave it in there The room overnight while you're sleeping.

It's a safe safer bet. That's how we practice everything here in my house You 

Michael Kummer: And I think one, one important nugget here to, to, uh, to repeat is distance plays a major role. So the cell tower a mile away is likely less of an issue than your phone next to your head, right? It's funny that, you know, a lot of people, you know, they're all, you know, they are, you know, cell towers or my neighbor's Wi Fi or whatever.

But then at the same time, you know, they maybe have a wearable, like, you know, maybe an Apple watch that they keep on overnight, you know, and sleep with it, you know, right next to their head, you know, that's much more of an issue than your neighbor's Wi Fi, right? Simply because of the proximity, you know, and if the amount of energy that is getting into your tissue, you know, the closer it is, the more energy can penetrate your tissue.

Um, and you know, your tissue reacts to that, you know, it warms up, it, there are other effects that have been studied and maybe, you know, at this point it's also worthwhile talking about, you know, the difference between, uh, ionizing and non ionizing radiation. Because the, the idea is that, I, well, I think we all know that ionizing radiation can break cell bonds, you know, that's problematic, you know, be it exposed to x rays, you know, all the time, or any other ionizing radiation that can actually break the bonds, you know, it.

Within your cells or between cells, that is a problem, you know. Non ionizing radiation, people say, well, you know, it doesn't break those bonds, so it's not an issue. Well, you know, I don't think so, because we've now, we have now enough studies that clearly show that even non ionizing radiation, you know, again, depending on the distance, depending on the strength, can trigger effects in the tissue such as tissue warming, you know, and what that does then over time is not completely known yet.

And humans really have a poor track record of, you know, coming up with something. And saying it's safe, and then it turns out, well, maybe it isn't, you know, you know, you know, cigarette smoke, you know, lead paint, you know, all of those, you know, asbestos, you know, we've, we've used or developed and invented so many things that we thought, well, they are safe because we have not seen any issues yet.

And then decades later we figure, well, maybe, you know, it wasn't that safe. And I treat EMFs, man made EMFs exactly the same way. I assume they are not safe until proven otherwise, you know, and not the other way around. 

Ben Salem: You know, what's fascinating about what you said is, when you look at the chart of ionizing and non ionizing and you look at the safe levels, right?

Mm hmm. FCC safe levels. Right. I believe they were tested in, I think in 96, 96 or 97. And what they did was, they did a SARD test. Are you familiar with what that is? So anytime you launch a product, you want to sell a product that has an antenna in it, like a cell phone. You're required to get a SAR test.

And the SAR test measures how much radiation is absorbed into the human tissue, into the skull and into the body. There's a certain amount that's allowed to be absorbed into the human tissue. And you have to go to an FCC accredited lab and do a SAR test. Then you have to show that you passed and then you're allowed to launch your, your, your Samsung or iPhone phone.

Right? What's fascinating about that is the limits that they tested and the last time they tested it was 1996. Okay? But the funny part is they test, they test the phone for four minutes. on and then four minutes off. You never test the phone for what you're really using your phone for. Are you using your phone for only four minutes the whole day?

Is it really four minutes a day? But hold on, it gets worse than that. Do you remember this phone? Yeah. You remember that? Yeah. That's like, this is not even, I mean, not even like 2. 4 gigahertz. Uh huh. So they're testing real and old signal too. They're not testing the 5Gs. The new phones that are going to be coming out that are working a lot are going to go up to 20 G's.

So, so, and that's the same thing, which is really scary because you'll look at other brands out there and they'll say, Oh, we have lab reports. We have a SAR test. And you look at the SAR test and you're like, what are they measuring? They're not even measuring 2. 4 gigahertz. They're in like the 200, 300 hertz, like a walkie talkie.

Right. So, there's a lot of scary stuff out there that people are promoting that works and it's scary because they're not doing anything or they're actually increasing the radiation. So, I think consumer has to be careful and, and learn how to read live reports and see if they're real and see where is the product made?

Where is the product coming from? Um, now, so, there's a lot there, but, unfortunately, other countries Um, what is it, Russia, China, Israel, Italy, France, they have all implemented systems for the SAR test. They're newer systems, and implement systems of kids, kids can't have Wi Fi in nurseries and kindergartens.

It's really fascinating, right? How they're so ahead of us, and we are just closing our eyes to all this. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, um, you know, one thing with, you know, one of the arguments I hear a lot as well, you know, if, if you don't want to get exposure from your cell phone, you know, just turn it off, right? And so, and I agree with that, you know, I mean, you know, turn off your Wi Fi at night if you're not using it, you know, turn off your, you know, your phone.

But the thing is with a cell phone in particular, you know, turning the phone into airplane mode whenever you don't use it means you're practically not, you cannot receive any calls, right? So if you need your phone for work, um, what are you going to do? I mean, I got now this, you know, Ethernet adapter that I can plug in.

So at least I can, you know, disable Wi Fi and even cellular connectivity because I can make, you know, phone, uh, calls over, uh, Voice over IP, basically, uh, using the ethernet connection, but, you know, turning stuff on and off gets old. And at some point, unless it can be automated where, you know, the system detects, Oh, I'm plugged in, I have internet and I turn everything else off.

And then I turn it back on when I unplug. It's probably not sustainable. And most people, you know, might not even have an ethernet port, you know, nearby. So I think your idea with your product isn't the same goes with, you know, with the AirPods, I mean, use wired, you know, headphones. Then you don't have to worry about, you know, some of those EMFs at least.

Right. But there's a reason why a lot of people have those. They work really well. They are very practical. You know, there was nothing getting tangled up. I mean, that was one of the things where, you know, as soon as there were wireless AirPods out there many years ago, before even I knew anything about EMFs, maybe now I would make a different decision.

But I'm like, this is great because getting tangled up all the time was just a pain in the butt, you know, and now I just, you know, put them in and then I'm ready to go. But the point is, you know, if you don't want to give up some of those conveniences, the convenient factor of certain products, there are still ways you can use to mitigate.

the problem. And that's why I guess, or one of the reasons why, you know, you launched, you know, WaveBlock, you know, and let's, so let's talk a little bit about what is WaveBlock exactly. How does it work? How is it not just a metal foil? You know, how is it not the Faraday cage that blocks all signals?

Because the, that's one of the things I hear a lot. Well, if you block the signal, then, you know, the phone is not going to work, but let's maybe go back to that wave example. You know, you mentioned before, it's not about blocking the wave, you know, but Dispersing the energy, so to say, so you get less absorbed into your tissue and your ultimate exposure levels are lower than they would be otherwise.

Ben Salem: Yeah. And that's a really good question because that's exactly what I ran into for six months while trying to solve this. If you put foil on the phone, you're either increasing the radiation or deflecting it in a, in a, to an area that you don't want. And then your signal is getting bad, your wireless charging doesn't work, the foil, the metals doesn't work.

And if you wrap it with a material that's made out of stone or lead, then the phone doesn't work at all. And that's the issue that was just going on over and over through my head. How do I solve this? But the way that WaveBlock works is it's not made out of metal. So here, for example, this is. This is a sticker that goes on your phone.

But if you were to, and you could do this test at home, if you were to shine a flashlight at this material, right here, you would notice that the light from, the light from your flashlight is broken up. It's broken up and absorbed. So it defragments the light. Right. And that's how a wave block works. So you have, behind your phone you have five different antennas.

Some models you have four antennas. Sometimes you have some antennas here, sometimes you have antennas here, sometimes the antenna is here. That's why every That's why we have so many different SKUs. We can't make one that fits all of them. Each one is engineered because we don't know where the antenna is gonna be, right?

So we have to engineer for each one separately. But what happens is when the antennas are are searching for the big antenna, for the satellite antenna, and it hits the wave lock material, it disperses it and reduces the radiation. So you're not getting this strong stream of Right, you're getting the dispersed right that kind of makes sense.

I'm trying to break it up into simple terms 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, so if you know if the sticker is on the back of the phone and I would just wanted to grab my phone But it's the camera so I can't do that. But the sticker is on the back of the phone, right? Is there then less radiation? So if I were to put that phone into my pocket with a sticker facing my thigh, would I get zero or less radiation on that side where the sticker is?

Because the reflective side sticks against the phone, right? So the dispersion, I guess, happens from the, from the screen out. Is that right? 

Ben Salem: Yes. Really smart question. So obviously we can't, we're not blocking. That's impossible. We can't block or the phone will stop working. But what's happening. On the backside, if you're going to put the backside against your skin, and if you look at our SAR report, which is on our website, I believe it's 80 percent less on the back, and then 49 percent less on the front.

Michael Kummer: That's significant. Yeah. And, and the reason, and, you know, I see that the, the Apple logo is, is cut out, is still visible. There is no antenna right underneath the Apple logo, which is why you don't need to have a sticker there. Is that right? I love your question. You're such an engineer. 

Ben Salem: The reason you don't have to cover this is because this is a metal magnet.

It's already there. 

Michael Kummer: Blocking already by itself. Gotcha. 

Ben Salem: Yeah. So kind of, we kind of got lucky there. That's what really happened. And some people like to leave it on. I think if you leave it on, it's when we tested it, it's maybe another like 1%. Hardly 

Michael Kummer: blocking. Gotcha. All right. And okay. So we are not blocking.

It's not made out of metal. So it's not grounding. It just disperses, which means if there are any impact on signal quality, is it immeasurable or it's zero? 

Ben Salem: It's zero. You know, we've sold over a million of these and we've never had any complaints with wireless charging, overheating, signal, none of that.

All we're doing is reducing, even on the earbuds. But this is fascinating. How far do you think those earbuds could talk to each other? If you put them at You put one on the back of the street, you put one on the front of the street, and you put one on the other. How far do you think they can talk to each other?

Michael Kummer: I have no idea, but I would guess probably, I don't know, maybe 30 yards? 

Ben Salem: 1200 

Michael Kummer: linear feet. 

Ben Salem: Wow. And it's line of sight. Line of sight? So why do we need all that power going through our skull? So, and that was the hardest part because I mean, this is my home office. And what I did was I converted my home office into a Faraday cage.

I wrapped the entire office with a material that had polyester and silver in it. And I wrapped the whole thing so I wouldn't get interference from the outside world. So I could do the testing in the house. And I bought really expensive directional radiation meters. You need one that is directional because if not, it's going to like get the neighbors and weird stuff's going to happen.

Right. And I started testing and testing. And every time I had too much of my material that it, then it would, it would kind of glitch to find, to find. And then what happened, what would happen is I would make it, I would test it at home and then I would go mountain biking for a couple hours with it. Or I would go snowboarding and test it out over and again until I found the exact formula, how much wave walk I need to use.

Right. That was the hardest part because, because, you know, I don't want it to go 1200 linear feet, right? 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. All right. So the product is available for Apple devices, you know, iPhones, right? You have an iPad sticker, I think. 

Ben Salem: Yeah, so created the iPad sticker about a year ago And that's the main reason that I came up with that is The idea came to my head as my kids have the iPad over their lap.

Michael Kummer: Mm-Hmm. 

Ben Salem: and Mothers, right? They're laying in bed, maybe pregnant, and the iPad's like right over the stomach, 

Michael Kummer: right? Yeah. Yeah. Then, uh, AirPods, I mean the, and, and then for the MacBook as well. I have one sticker on my MacBook here. Um, and on my phone, but the, I think the iPad, I don't have yet, um, but those are the, and do you, do you have, the thing is you, you mentioned it already, you know, you need to kind of a one skew of one product for one particular phone or model of the phone, really, because they're all slightly different, right?

So there is no all purpose kind of get one sticker and it's going to work on most phones, you know, that's impossible. And that's why I guess the. Okay. Your product coverage is, is, is limited by that, by that reason or for that reason. Do you have anything for Android or you, uh, strictly Apple? 

Ben Salem: Yeah, we do.

We have Android phones now as well. And again, you want to be careful because if you have a cell phone and you randomly put a one tiny sticker that you buy from Amazon or wherever, and you're right behind the antenna, you're going to amplify that antenna wherever that antenna is. 

Michael Kummer: Right. Yeah. 

Ben Salem: So some people have stickers that are made out of plastic, but inside there, they have metal shavings in there, metal dust.

Michael Kummer: Right. 

Ben Salem: So imagine what that does. 

Michael Kummer: And that's really one thing, you know, the problem really is, I think in that particular field, you know, there is just a lot of misinformation out there. There is a lot of, um, you know, lack of knowledge, really. And then there is the fact that most people don't know how to read lab reports, right?

And, and understand what that report really says. And, and so I've seen, you know, and you've seen even more, I assume plenty of products out there. And I had, you know, a couple of those products that were, you know, brands reached out to me and say, Hey, can you, you know, review our, it's like, you know, this glass kind of, you know, sphere, you just put it in your room and it's going to mitigate, you know, all the EMS and that thing was like 800.

So it was not inexpensive. So, and the thing is, you know, people think, well, if it's expensive, it's got to work, right? Because why would it be 800 bucks? Uh, but since it was a gifted to me and I didn't have to pay for it, I actually got a hammer from the garage and I cracked it open just to see what's inside.

How can, you know, something possibly mitigate EMS without blocking anything, without doing anything? It's just plugged in. What does it do? And I cracked it open and what I found was a boatload of glue. Um, that was basically, you know, those, those, you know, regular gemstones that you can find, you know, anywhere, nothing special, nothing fancy, nothing expensive, they were just glued in a, in a, in a circle.

Uh, and then on the outside was an LED light strip that would light up, you know, that, that sphere, so you can tell it was, you know, on and, and working. But that was, that was it. It was just a bunch of gemstones, you know, and, and with the most, I mean, I know that Apple likes to use a lot of glue, which, you know, decreases repairability, right?

Like for those kinds of guys, there's like a bunch of glue inside of the stem. So there is no easy way to open this thing up and do anything or see anything. And the same with, with this device. where it was just glued together and made almost impossible. There was no way other than cracking the glass to get into it.

And it turned out it's just a couple of, you know, 20 gemstones, um, glued together and an LED light strip in the glass. And that was 800 bucks worth of device. That did absolutely nothing. I mean, in this case, the goodness is, it didn't harm any. It was just, you know, basically a decorative item that would light up.

And, and that's it. But, you know, there are some devices out there and I've had some of those stickers as well for reviews or that can wear around your, your, your neck or whatever, you know, and if, if they're practically antennas or extensions of the antennas, if they're in close proximity to the actual antenna in the phone or your iPad or your, what have you, um, you're going to make things worse, you know, and, and that's, um, um, That's a problem, you know, and people don't know.

So, how much attention do you pay, do you pay to removing the source of EMFs rather than trying to mitigate it? Meaning, where is your, um, your, your, your balance point where you say, you know what? By removing something, you know, I would, you know, negatively impact my productivity or whatever it is. But what is your take?

How much, you know, do you just remove, you know, no Wi Fi in your room? I mean, you have, you know, a Faraday cage. Most people don't have that. They don't have the resources to, you know, literally build a Faraday cage. I already failed convincing my wife that we could have like over our bed, like, you know, a drape that's made with silver fabric, you know, to block out everything.

Not even that was, you know, easy, um, to, to get my wife on board with, but what do you do in terms of removing? EMFs versus then just mitigating what is left. 

Ben Salem: You know what? I keep it really simple cause we have to live our life. So it's not that extreme here in my house. So the wifi, the wifi, we have it on a timer.

So it turns off every night when the kids are sleeping and then we leave our phones far away from us when charging at night. And most of the stuff in the house is hardwired. But that's really it. You know, there's not this. You gotta live your life. 

Michael Kummer: I 

Ben Salem: think it's the duration of time and proximity, but what's really fascinating is, and I should send this to you, I just made a video of this.

I just moved to a new office. After like 20 years, I just moved to a new office. And I moved into the office, and I'm sitting in the office, and everything is, is, is great. And then one night I'm leaving the office, and when I walk out, I hear a little tiny buzz. Like I hear this like a little buzz and I'm like, what is that?

What is that? Like, what's that noise? And I opened up the door to the side of my office, right? And there is, it's a big office. So there's five electrical meters and the electrical meter, it has, it has like its own wifi, right? It has its own like GPS. The smart meter, huh? So, you know, I know one, one of them is, you know, maybe semi bad.

So I said, for fun, let's just test this. So I took my meter and I walked like down the hallway like with 30 feet away and as I'm walking It's already redlining redlining redlining redlining. I get to my desk which is right near the wall Where the five meters are the meter can't even go anymore. It's fully redlined and But there's nothing you can do.

This is my new office, right? So what I did, and this is really fun actually, I've never done this before, so it's fun to know that it actually worked. I bought a paint that blocks the radiation. I put three coats of that paint and then I put one metal strip along the baseboard. And with that metal strip, I hooked up one of the metal strips just to the ground of the electrical.

I grounded the whole wall. I was able to block everything from coming in. Right? So that was really interesting. And So if someone is, someone lives, uh, in an apartment, or has the same issue, that's something that you could solve, and the reason that worried me is because I'm in that office for 5, 6, 8 hours a day, so I get the duration of time and proximity, that makes me worry, but everything else is life, like, we go in that.

Michael Kummer: Yeah, well fair enough, there is only so much you can do before. You dramatically and negatively impact, I guess, the quality of your life after all. So you need to find that balance. And I guess that balance is different for anyone, you know, also depending on your resources and your desire to tinker with stuff, you know, um, but yeah, I mean, turning, turning off the wifi at night and, you know, Charging the phone in a different room.

I guess those are super simple and not only good from a EMF mitigation perspective, but being on your phone right before, you know, going to bed and, and being on your phone, right thing, uh, first thing in the morning. A terrible for your mental health, you know, so you kind of get like a double win. But just doing that, you know, and then being, being off wifi.

So, and that's what we do as well. And it has made it a dramatic difference in terms of, you know, our mood, because if the first thing you see in the morning is like an nasty message or whatever, or, you know, stupid comment on social media that sets the tone for the day. And you don't really need that.

Right. All right, cool. Well, thanks so much, Ben. I appreciate it. Uh, maybe where can people find you? You know, where can people find those stickers, most importantly? Um, and how can you make sure? Because I know that there's a lot of counterfeit stuff out there that, you know, they're actually getting the, the real thing.

So if they, you're selling, you don't sell on Amazon, do you? 

Ben Salem: Yeah, we just started selling on Amazon a couple months ago. Yeah, so we're on Amazon and then, uh, waveblock. com. 

Michael Kummer: All right, cool. And then you also have, yeah, and you also have all the test reports, right? Again, you need to, and lab reports, you need to be able to kind of understand what you're reading.

But everything, all the tests that you've done, you know, they're out there. Um, it's not blocking, maybe that's worth reiterating. It's just dispersing, making sure there's less of that energy from the EMFs getting into your tissue. Um, you mentioned, I think 80, what is it? 80 percent on the, on the back and 49 percent on the front.

So that's a significant reduction in your exposure, especially if you use the phone a lot. Um, you know, those are, for me, those are, you know, no brainers. And when Spentos, whatever it is, you know, 30 bucks or whatever, you know, a sticker costs, you know, you dramatically reduce your exposure, um, without having done anything else, you know?

And so I think it's, it's, it's an absolute no brainer and they last, they've, you know, usually I, I need a new sticker whenever I change my phone, you know? 

Ben Salem: Thanks. 

Michael Kummer: All 

Ben Salem: right. That's great. I appreciate you. Well, 

Michael Kummer: thanks. I appreciate it as well. Bye.