74: Real Food vs. Ultra-Processed: What Are You Really Eating? With Chef Barry

Real Food vs. Ultra-Processed: What Are You Really Eating? With Chef Barry

James Barry: like 100 percent carnivore, for example, um, I was craving certain plants. 

Michael Kummer: probably because I They don't know, you know, nobody has ever told them, you know, 

James Barry: exactly. You only know what you know. And, and the reality is, is that, so something as a chef that I did all the time was I would do, I would test things.

So I was always like doing 30 day tests. If I eat meat, it was raw or fish, any, anything ate right for 30 days. That was, I felt the best I have ever felt in my entire life. There's a quote he has, it's called, he says, uh, we are the only species in the world.

Michael Kummer: How many people really prepare food at home and have dinner as a family, you know? Speaking of, um, how did you get into mixing seasonings with organs? 

James Barry: Let's get your audience a discount. What would you like it to be? Actually, let's make it 20. Let's go for it, man. 20%. All 

Michael Kummer: right. 

Intro:

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Michael Kummer:

Thanks so much for joining me today. I know you're a chef. You do many things, but you know, one of the things that I've, uh, that I've found interesting is you're, you're a chef. So you're very much used to, uh, making foods taste incredible.

And so what I'd like to know from you is, you know, what role, uh, have plants as well as organs, which are, you know, kind of opposite sides of the spectrum. Also from sometimes from a taste perspective, right. Depending on who you ask, um, what roles do those two food groups play in your diet and why? Yeah.

Thank you for 

James Barry: having me, Michael. Um, yeah, I've been, uh, I've 20 years as a chef and I. I've worked with people trying to lose weight to people that are sick. Uh, I've worked with, um, practitioners of all types from dieticians to naturopaths, to doctors, to even psychic nutritionists. I mean, I've kind of worked with so many different people in the industry.

And, um, it's interesting. I don't necessarily tend to think of it just as like plants or muscle meats or. Vegan, vegetarian, like I don't typically put diets in these categories. I really, I feel like in the 20 years, the thing that has been consistent in my messaging is real food. That, that the epidemic, the obesity epidemic, the issues that people are having with their health is so prevalent here in the U.

S. I mean, so much more so than I think anyone truly understands, because, you know, we're all in very specific pods, you know, of health, and so we're surrounded by people that are like minded, that are listening, that are curious. That, um, that might have been already on this health path, but the majority of people are not, and they're, they're not, they don't even know that there's an issue, they're not, they're, they're not, they're not exposed to different ways of eating, they're very stuck in that sad diet, they're very, like, I've, I've been into towns where the grocery store what they carry.

Their main grocery store is no different than that convenience store. It's just, it's all ultra processed foods. Maybe a banana and an apple like that, uh, literally a banana and apple might be the only real food there. And even that's, you know, conventional fruit, right? So I just feel like we are, we are, the problem is so much bigger than any of us realize.

that many of us in, in these categories are speaking in a vacuum because we're only speaking to the people that, you know, already speak our language. And that the majority of people, we have to meet them where they are. So my, my main focus is always like, look, I can't really go on a diet too much. What I really can do is just focus on you're eating ultra processed foods.

So let's just move to foods that are an ingredient versus have ingredients. And I find when we just kind of talk in those, those kind of sound bites that they're able to hear us a little bit better. But, but to answer your question though, I would say that, um, over the years I have got, I eat primarily carnivore, um, I do find though, when I'm 100 percent of anything, that my body tends to crave certain things.

And, um, and so I try to listen to that. I don't, obviously I don't, if I'm craving ice cream, I don't necessarily jump to eat ice cream. Um, I'm, I'm, I've gotten smarter about that, of course, in years. But I do, I did notice when I was eating like 100 percent carnivore, for example, um, I was craving certain plants.

And, and so I, I eat them, you know, or if I crave certain fruits, I'll eat them. But I, I find for the most part, I don't, I don't crave that many things. Um, and I'm still experimenting to see which plants are causing issues. Cause I, I do notice I'll have skin issues sometimes based on some of the things I eat and I eat pretty clean.

So I'm pretty sure it has to do with the plants. Yeah. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. Yeah. Same here. And, you know, funny that you say, You know, that we kind of, you know, preach to the choir, um, coincidentally, last night I, you know, I watched 30 minutes of TV and I, I saw a documentary about a militia, uh, like one of those paramilitary, you know, prepper type of, you know, uh, groups and, you know, think what you, you know, want about those, you know, uh, type of groups, but what was interesting is that they are, they were clearly focused on preparing for You know something be it a natural disaster be it, you know, whatever russians are invading it doesn't really matter But they're all in rural areas of georgia, you know where I am funny enough, you know So I kind of you know thought I want to see this, you know What what they are doing probably up north of where I live And the one thing that stood out was that they were all out of shape Metabolically unhealthy for sure just based on how they looked and when they showed what they were eating for dinner and what they were drinking You I'm like, you know, the number one thing in my opinion, uh, you know, if you want to be prepared, if you want to, you know, outlive a natural disaster, whatever, you've got to be somewhat fit, you know, you've got to be healthy because if all hell breaks loose and suddenly you don't have your insulin injections anymore, you're dead, right?

And so the first thing for me would be, you know, get in shape and take care of your health. And none of those people were doing it probably because. They don't know, you know, nobody has ever told them, you know, 

James Barry: exactly. You only know what you know. And, and the reality is, is that, uh, the word I use for it nowadays is, is that without contrast, so it's contrast that we need without that.

Why would you change? Cause there's, there's nothing inspiring change if you don't have contrast. Um, are you familiar with Philip, uh, Philip Mies of, uh, of, uh, Carnivore Bar? 

Michael Kummer: Yes, yeah, actually, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm reviewing them right now for a, for a video. Okay. Yeah. So 

James Barry: he, what, what, why I bring him up is he's, he's a really great guy, but why I bring him up is, is, is, so he was in the military and he was very frustrated because they get sent out on these long missions and the food that they were given was all this, uh, process, ultra process, just.

unhealthy food. And that was so supposed to sustain them while they were away from their base. And he was just, he got sick 

Michael Kummer: and, 

James Barry: and, and overweight and just was ill. And, and so when he got out of the military, he was very adamant of like, I'm going to create a bar that is truly healthy. And that's going to sustain soldiers and anyone in the military and technically anyone even out of the military to, uh, you know, for a long period of time.

And then, so he focused on pemmican, which is, you probably know pemmican is a ancestral way of preserving meat. So, so you would take 50 percent of fat. So usually it's tallow, and then you take 50 percent of dried meat protein, and then you blend those together and you have an, an old style way of preserving that meat.

Yeah. Uh, and they, they found pemmican that's. thousands of years old. So it really does work. I think his pemmican bar is one of, one of the reasons, or one of the ways he markets it is he says they're good for 25 years. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, and that is good. I love them. Um, you know, they're obviously not Inexpensive because making those is not inexpensive, right?

I mean, it's at the end of today You get the highest quality meat and and tallow, you know in some salt or whatever flavors, you know There are different flavors available, but you know, it's it's a high quality product Um, and it it shelf stable, you know So if you really want to be prepared and stock your pantry or your, you know, your, your basement with, with food, um, you know, make it something like that, you know, and, and you'll be, and you'll be good to go.

James Barry: I think, you know, that, that's an interesting topic, like, you know, the, the cost of food, right. And I think, I think it's interesting for you and I to talk about it since we're, you know, we're both promoting organ meats and we're promoting freeze dried powdered organ meats, which increased the price of an, you know, an organ meat incredibly.

Um, like it's, I find it really fascinating cause that is, that is the thing of course that comes up, right, is, is food costs, which have obviously increased. And I know that Philip deals with this all the time of like people saying like, Oh, your bars are so expensive. And I'm sure you, you get that with your products as well.

And I get that with mine as well. And it's like, It's an interesting topic because, because there, there's on one side, it's like, yeah, is it, do you have to be wealthy to be healthy? Right? Conversation. But then the other side of that coin is, well, what is the true cost of food? Correct. And, and the perception is very, uh, just warped because of the subsidizing that's happening.

by the US government, right? So that, you know, and it's, it's been happening for since, I mean, actually, I don't even know how long it's been. They've been subsidized, I think since before the sixties, but I could be wrong. Um, but I do know that for example, a 10 cent hamburger back in the day. And what, even when I was growing up, there were, I think, 49 to 69 cents.

And now there may be a dollar or something, but either way, That is not the true cost of a hamburger. 

Michael Kummer: Right. Right. 

James Barry: And we know that it's not the true cost and, and, and yet that's the perception everyone has of how much meat should cost when people don't really realize that it's, it, you're actually paying more than that, but you're paying that through your subsidize your taxes because your taxes are subsidizing the industry.

And, uh, and so you don't realize it, but you're paying a lot more than what you are at the grocery store. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, of course the problem is, you know, just because I stop, uh, purchasing subsidized food doesn't make it, doesn't make the, the, the good food any cheaper, right? Uh, at least not, unless, you know, we all do that, you know, and we stop subsidizing, uh, altogether and, you know, we keep more of our tax dollars and we can choose how to spend it, right?

Uh, but at the same time, I also think that, I think, you know, food budgets have, uh, are not really where they should be. Um, you know, that's one thing we, and that is us included, and we, we tend to spend money on things that are significantly less important for overall health. than food, right? Be it, you know, cars and, you know, gadgets and, uh, I don't know what.

Um, and also, you know, I think people don't truly understand what is, what it really costs to produce good food. And we've only realized that when we started, you know, growing some of our own food and, you know, we're eating likely the, you know, some of the most expensive eggs. Uh, we can, we can have simply because, you know, we choose to purchase the most expensive type of feed for our chickens that has no, you know, vegetable oils, no seed oils, soy, corn free, organic, you know, all the, you know, checks all the marks basically.

That's very expensive, you know, as opposed to feeding just, you know, regular corn, soy, you know, type of feed with seed oil binders, you know, that, um, that changes the fatty acid composition and the bird. And then eventually also 

James Barry: in the egg chickens are a perfect example. 'cause I mean, people don't even realize how much protein chickens eat and need and, and it's incredibly expensive to raise a chicken properly.

Yeah. and what we see in the grocery stores from eggs to carcass or to the bird is completely inaccurate. I mean, completely. So yeah, I hear you. It's, it's, uh, when you do it right, it's still not necessarily cheaper, but, but I have to think though, that you probably don't need to eat as much. Would you find that to be true?

Like when you're, when you're eating food, that is well, like very nutrient dense. Um, raised properly, because it, which makes supports it being nutrient dense. 

Michael Kummer: Right. 

James Barry: You, you get satiated through less. Whereas, you know, when you're eating a lot of the people that are eating ultra processed foods, they eat a lot more of that food because their body's looking for that nutrition.

Right. At least like for, I'll give an example. Like when I was, um, so something as a chef that I did all the time was I would do, I would test things. So I was always like doing 30 day tests. And so I did like, uh, any diet that's ever come out, I would do it on for 30 days because I had to know not only how it felt eating it, but I had to know how to cook it well, like I had to, cause I was, I was a private chef for people that were doing those diets.

So I had to understand the diet, you know, backwards and forwards. And so I did this one diet that that's basically called primal raw. So everything I ate was raw, and I'm not talking raw vegetables, I'm talking meat. Everything I ate. So if I had cheese it was raw, if I had milk it was raw, and more importantly if I ate meat it was raw.

Or fish, anything I ate, right? For 30 days, that was, I felt the best I have ever felt in my entire life. And I ate less. 

Michael Kummer: Because, 

James Barry: you know, when we cook meat, We degrade it, right? Right. Like the, the, the nutrients lower, but when it's raw, you get everything. And, uh, it was phenomenal. The biggest issue, cause then obviously anyone listening is going, well, why aren't you still eating that way?

Right. That's the obvious question. And it's because it wasn't realistic. Like I had, we had just had our first child and it was like, we can't, you can't necessarily feed a child raw stuff because Um, also we didn't necessarily have a lot of friends eating that way, so we wouldn't have been able to be social with people unless we brought our own food, like there's an aspect of kind of, I think everyone listening, I imagine you go through this too, we're constantly balancing like how do we survive in this world, the modern world, but yet, you find our, our definition or live, our health, right?

The health that we believe is right for us. 

Michael Kummer: Absolutely. And it's, you know, it's ever changing, right? And it's ever changing and 

James Barry: it's, and it's challenging. It's no doubt. It's challenging. You know, do you know, um, Dr. Bill Schindler? Yeah. 

Michael Kummer: Oh yeah. 

James Barry: Uh, Bill, I love Bill. He's, he's a friend of mine and, and there's a quote he has.

It's called, he says, uh, we are the only species in the world. That looks to someone else to tell us what to eat. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, 

James Barry: and you in on a certain level it's like, oh, it's that's what's scary But it gets even scarier when you realize there's there's over eight million species on this planet. 

Michael Kummer: Mm hmm, 

James Barry: and we're the only one that's like, uh, hello Could you tell me what I should eat?

Because I don't remember, you know, I don't know I like you're so out of touch with our food. Yeah You our food industry, uh, we're also so out of touch with just listening to our bodies that, you know, most people are kind of stuck. And, um, it, and so that's one thing I'm, I'm really always trying to promote is like, how, how do we, okay, it's going to be pretty impossible to get back to our ancestral knowledge of what we want to eat, because Our ancestors didn't have the marketing machines that we have.

They didn't have the hybridized food. They didn't have all the things that we're dealing with. But I do believe we can get closer. But to do that, we have to do a few things. We have to slow down when we're eating. We have to like, be mindful when we're eating. Make mindful choices and actually be mindful as we're eating the food.

Like chewing and eating. breathing, you know, and taking the time to actually like assimilate the food. And then we have to, um, we have to eat the food. We can't just, you know, so many people are scarfing things down and they're just like, they're either swallowing tons of pills. Or they're just rushing through the food, and they're waiting too long to eat, and they're making bad decisions.

They're not being mindful. They're making addictive decisions. You know, like where you're so depleted that you then look for the starchy, high carb food, or high sugary food, because your body's so So itchy for some, some energy, right? Or some carbs. 

Michael Kummer: Well, let me ask you this because you know, that's something we've noticed both my wife and I, it's, it's like one of those things that drives us nuts is when we sit down as a family for dinner and there are, let's say there's steak on the table or there are patties or there are, you know, sweet plantains that we like to, you know, make from a fruit perspective and our kids sit down.

And as soon as, you know, that, that bowl of patties or whatever is on the table. It's almost like who can get the most food on the plate first because it's, it's going to be gone soon and it's with good food. You know, it's not that we are putting nachos or whatever on the table. So it's, it's meat. It's, you know, one ingredient type of, you know, foods, as you said before.

But I'm like, kids, slow down, enjoy your food, you know, chew it. And. And don't just, you know, rush it and, and, and, and, and wash it down with, you know, with some raw milk or whatever, you know, that's not the purpose. And then I'm like, looking in nature, I'm like, if you see a, you know, a pack of, of wolves or a hyena or whatever, you know, killing, killing a prey.

They go to town too. And I'm like, well, I'm trying to tell them to slow down and enjoy their food But if you look at nature, the exact opposite is happening. What is your take on that? 

James Barry: Well, yeah, it's that's an interesting perspective I haven't actually thought about how that is in nature. But my my first thought is that well in nature They're not eating as much as we do right?

So when I go to eat there, they're truly hungry, right? When we go to eat, I think it's a lot of times it's behavioral. It's just, it's, uh, it's, we've learned to do it that way. And just like the person that's constantly in fight or flight, they have to learn to meditate. They have to learn to slow down. We have to do that in the, in the, in the kitchen as well, or at the dinner table.

Um, a couple of ideas that I, that, that I would have though, to slow down is. a lot of times when we're kind of stuck in a rut or I say rut, that's probably the wrong word, but a pattern stuck in a pattern. It's usually connected to texture of the food connected to flavor. And, um, it just kind of in general, this is the same thing as flavor, but it's, it's kind of tied to our palate as well.

So most of Americans, for example, are tied to their salty sweet. of their taste buds, right? So we have salty, sweet, bitter, sour, umami. And they think there's even a sixth one that has to do with rancid food or like when food's gone bad that that has its own flavor as well. And the four that we all mostly grow to school learning is the salty, the salt, sweet, bitter, sour.

And I find that most kids when they're picky and obviously yours aren't, but when most kids are picky, it's because they're stuck in the salty sweet. So the way to. encourage them to start being more adventurous is not to be hard on them, to shame them, to, um, to, to kind of do that kind of thing where it's like, you can't leave the table to eat this food, no matter what it is.

And it's actually, you can get it, you can get there through the palate. You just have to start introducing those other flavors, but you don't have to introduce them on huge amounts. You can treat it kind of like a pet when you're trying to introduce new food to a pet. Anyone that's done it knows if you go too fast, the pet will get diarrhea or something like they'll have issues, digestive issues.

And so what you do is you do a little bit of the new food and mostly the old food, and then you slowly mess with those ratios, uh, over time, but gradually. And you do the same with kids is, is, you know, like you can mix, for example, sauerkraut juice, which is sour. So you can take fermented vegetables, take the juice from that fermented vegetables and slowly add a little bit of that too.

The ground meat or to the sauce that they're putting on there, whatever it is, And their palate will start to open up and they'll start to get more adventurous So that's that's what most people could do with their kids. But in terms of like ideas for your kids to slow down Uh, I would focus on what do you guys do you guys already before you start eating?

Do you do like a Grace or a prayer or just some some kind of take a breath before you actually start eating 

Michael Kummer: What we started doing is in a showing. Um expressing, um, gratefulness, you know, gratitude, right. To kind of say, okay, Hey, you know, mom cooked this food. We're very fortunate that we have that, you know, kind of help them understand that this is not something that everyone has.

Right. And that we are grateful for that. So that's, I guess what, what we, um, started doing. 

James Barry: That's a great thing, but you can even extend, I don't know how you're doing it, but one thing you could do is you could be like, Let's go around the table and everyone just say one grace, one thing that they're grateful for, whether it's about the meal or even their day.

And so just to get people out of that, you know, right away, you're at the table and even though your, your instinct or the way you've been socialized is to go, you know, towards the food, but by getting them to use their, I think it's the left brain. So our right brain is kind of more like, give me that right, left.

I'm not sure which side of the brain, but whatever, you get them to transfer that their energy towards thinking about their day or, or, or thinking outside of their hunger. So that's one way. But another way that a lot of people don't actually think about is you, if you change the texture of what you're serving, it will force people to go slower.

So let's just say if you're always serving ground meat, that's very easy to eat because there's no bones. There's nothing to work around, right? You just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So if you want the child to slow down, serve that meat with bone, serve it, serve it in a different capacity than they're used to.

Maybe it's a braised stew. And so they actually have to hunt for the meat a little bit more because it's so liquidy and it's falling apart. But the minute you change the texture and the method of delivery, they'll have to slow, you force them to slow down. Um, and then there's other ones that are probably more obvious and more talked about, which is you, you require that every time you take a bite, you have to put your fork down.

Michael Kummer: right? Yeah. 

James Barry: You know, very simple. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. And we, we have, you know, uh, introduced, obviously, you know, I'm, I'm a huge fan of, of tough meats, tough to true meats, uh, with the bone sim, you know, to, to, you know, work out your, and exercise your, your jaw muscles and everything. Yeah. And so that's one thing we have, uh, we, we, we do.

quite a bit, you know, to simply serve something that requires a lot of chewing, uh, not necessarily for that reason, but that's, you know, uh, didn't think about that, but more so from a, um, jaw muscle exercise, uh, perspective. Uh, but yeah, that, that's, uh, in putting the fork down, I actually have not heard, I hadn't heard about that.

So that's, that's, uh, yeah, that's an interesting idea. 

James Barry: That one's, uh, that's a good one. And I mean, back in, like, I think it was in the seventies, they had, there was a whole movement of chewing. And they used to have, I cannot remember the name, there was a name for it. Um, but they used to, there used to be eating, people would eat at these tables and it'd be silent because they wouldn't allow people to talk and they had a minimum amount of times they had to chew the food and I think it was kind of crazy, like it was like 60 times, you know, it's like you had to like literally chew and chew and so that's why people never talked, but.

I don't know. I mean, once again, I think it all goes back to not only your definition of health, but also what are you able to sustain? Because, you know, anyone can introduce an idea to us and we could do it for a day, a week, maybe even a month, maybe. But I'm not, I personally have no interest in that. Like, I want to know what's the thing I'm going to do for a lifetime.

Like, I'm looking for little movements that I can do daily. moments that I could do today because, because the, when we're, when we're extreme, it's just not sustainable. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, no, I totally agree. No, it's, it's absolutely true. You know, and it's the same with dieting and I'm, I'm, you know, any 30 day, whatever, you know, I mean, you did it for obvious reasons, but someone, you know, saying, Oh, I'm going to do a 30 day reset.

And then I go back to how I ate before. Absolutely useless. You know, what's the point? Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, funny, you know, that, uh, waiting before you start eating kind of thing. funny enough, you know, we've, we've been doing this with our dog and it was German shepherd and he's on a raw meat diet.

Um, and we trained him from the beginning that he can only start eating once we give him the okay. Right. And now it's become so, you know, and once we hit that down, you know, we were a little, you know, less, uh, more lenient with that. And, but he still has that ingrained. So whenever we put the football down, you know, and we don't tell him.

Free, you know, he would just sit there and sometimes we would forget, you know, we put the food down, you know, Walk away, you know, do something else in the kitchen or whatever and like 10 minutes later, you know We hear like the dog make a noise and i'm like, what is it and he's still sitting in front of his bowl Waiting for the release word 

James Barry: Now you just have to train your kids with a release word exactly exactly 

Michael Kummer: If a german shepherd can learn it a human should be able to yeah 

James Barry: Pavlov's dogs, right?

Yeah You You know, another thing that, um, gosh, what, what's another thing that we do at home, um, well, one thing we do at our house is so we will kind of, we'll sit there and kind of do this round Robin of just gratitude, but then once we start eating, we also will start, typically we'll ask questions like, so what was.

What, what was three things in your day that you, you, you're, you're really happy about? Right. You know, we, we'll, we'll encourage some, some dialogue that shifts them, you know, everyone, like I said, to a different part of their brain. And of course it's a great way to connect as a family at that time, but I just find like if we.

There's ways to kind of like get people out of these routines or these cycles. And it, and it doesn't have to be serious. It doesn't have to be, um, like I said earlier, shaming, but then you can even do it with humor and, and joy. And, um, so I'm a, I'm a big fan of like using that table time with the family as a real point of connection.

Yeah, I agree. And, and I think there was even some study back in the day where they were showing all these people that were successful. And I don't think success necessarily meant financial. I think they were just well, well balanced people. Mm-hmm . Um, but who, who had very high level jobs and every single one of them, the.

The only similarity they all had was that they all ate dinners with their parents like they were there were family dinners. 

Michael Kummer: Mm hmm And that's another thing. I mean, you know You know Talking or going back to what you said initially about, you know, most people not knowing and you know most people are you know unhealthy and don't know any better and How many people really prepare food at home and have dinner with their parents?

As a family, you know, absolutely not that many major issue. Yeah, it's a major 

James Barry: issue And I would offer that anyone listening that's struggling with that. Um, one of the easiest health tools that we have available to us that is very underutilized is meal planning. It's, it's something that is so simple. You, you grab a, you grab a recipe magazine, you grab a cookbook, doesn't matter which one, just pick one from yourself, go to the library, rent one, bring it home.

And then you all sit down, you, you pick, you know, five recipes, five or six of those recipes for the week. Just focus on dinners and then from there you make a grocery list based on those recipes. You make sure to make double the recipes so then that way that's also the next day's lunch. 

Michael Kummer: Right? 

James Barry: And then breakfast, just keep to three, you know, one to three things.

I mean, keep it simple for breakfast. Eggs, steak, whatever, eggs, this, whatever you do for breakfast is, you could eat the same thing every day, I don't care, keep it simple, then, you know, put your effort in those dinners, and, what is, what's amazing is that A, you don't make emotional purchases when you go to the grocery store, cause you have a list, And then you plan your, your meal plan around your schedule.

So don't just willy nilly go like, Oh, well let's just have this today and that's tomorrow, because if you look at your work schedule and you have a day where it's like, you're working all the way up to, you know, dinnertime, clearly that's not a day to do a complicated meal, right? So that would be a day I would do like a slow cook meal or a pressure cook meal where you can start it at the, in the morning and it's ready to do it when you're ready.

So you want to use your emotional intelligence when you're planning your meal planning. But, but I'm telling you, it's, it is the most. It, it, it will truly change your entire week and it's completely underutilized by people. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And you know, funny enough, you know, both my wife and I are home all day and are we homeschool the kids?

So we all at home. And even so, you know, and we, make every meal, you know, from scratch. Uh, we eat twice a day breakfast or, well, we break our fast at some point during the day, and then we have dinner. Um, and, and even so we found that planning ahead is incredibly useful and beneficial and saves you a lot of time and, and decision making because we all have to make so many decisions throughout the day.

You know, the fewer decisions I have to make because I already know what's going to happen. I think the, the smooth, the more smoother sailing it is for the remainder of the day. And in particular, you know, if there are kids involved who, you know, everyone has different tastes and preferences, you know, but if you get together, you know, on a Sunday and say, Hey, okay, what, what is it you guys want to eat?

Here are your options, you know, pick your favorite meals and I'll make sure we'll, we'll incorporate them. You know, uh, it's a, it's huge. 

James Barry: Now, what time do you guys normally eat? 

Michael Kummer: Um, we try to have dinner around five, um, between four and six. I want to say sometimes it's a little earlier. Sometimes it's a little later.

Uh, but between, 

James Barry: I was going to suggest that because I've noticed that when we have dinner, I noticed that my kids are hungry at four 30. And so that's one thing I always recommend to people is like, I know we all have this idea of like when dinner is supposed to be served, you know, for some people seven, some is six, some are five, right?

But what I suggest is instead of coming in with this hard rule of when, notice, particularly if you have kids, notice when are the kids the most hungry, right? Because most likely what's happening for those seven people that are eating really late, what's happening, and I would almost guarantee it, is that the kids are hungry at that 4 or 4.

30 time. They're eating a snack. Yeah. And then they're not hungry at 6, and then that's why you're eating at 7. But if you just feed kids at 4. 30, or whatever that time is, like you said, maybe 4 even, you find that not only do they eat their entire meal, but they don't need food later that night. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. 

James Barry: Right?

They're not, they're not craving other food. So it's really, um, I think it's, I'm always trying to listen, you know what I mean? I'm always trying to not just go into any situation assuming things, but really just listening and seeing what, and obviously those habits are going to change based on the season as well, right?

Because, uh, just like our cravings for certain foods change with the season, so does when we want to eat. 

Michael Kummer: Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. And one thing, you know, we've noticed it that modern life very often kind of dictates when you can eat and that often does not align with when you're hungry. Right. And so we've noticed this in particular with our kids when they were still in school, you know, they had to get up at six And then have breakfast before, you know, leaving for school at that time, you know, our, our Ten year old almost 11 year old now.

She typically that is not hungry until we eat around 10 or 11 You know, that's her, that's when she breaks her fast, not because, you know, we told her that fasting is good because that's when she gets hungry, you know, and that's when she eats our younger one. On the other hand, you know, she can eat relatively quickly after, you know, waking up because he feels hungry.

And so that would have been impossible to implement if they were still at school, right? Because either they eat at home or they have to deal with, you know, they bring stuff, but they can only eat when there is their, you know, break, lunch break or what have you. They cannot just, you know, unpack the lunch box at 10, uh, in the middle of, you know, classes.

Um, and so that was really interesting. And that is obviously an also shifted, you know, one day when we have dinner. And now that we have fortunately flexibility, our whole eating and also our sleeping routine has completely changed and is more based on what we need versus what society tells us, you know, we have to do at a given point.

James Barry: That's fantastic. Now, when did you start homeschooling? So it sounds like they used to go to the city school. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. Yeah, they used to go to To public school. We started we took them out two years ago. 

James Barry: Okay, and so what what have you what is some obvious things that you've seen? change from that. 

Michael Kummer: Mostly our, uh, daughter's sleep schedule.

Um, she, she is one, you know, who goes to bed at, you know, with everyone else, um, at a reasonable time, usually between seven and eight, but she doesn't fall asleep until nine, you know? And when she was still at school, you know, having to get up at six and she was young or two, you know, where she required even more sleep, uh, that was very difficult for her.

You know, because she had to get up before she was ready, you know, and so that's one thing we've noticed that her energy levels and her, her whole demeanor really throughout the day has dramatically improved by just getting enough sleep, you know, and not being sleep deprived all the time. Um, the other thing we've noticed is that our little one, that was probably the most fascinating discovery at all.

You know, we never taught him Formally, you know how to read because you know, my wife's costa rican. She speaks spanish with the kids You know, i'm from austria. So I speak german and obviously, you know, we have the english because we live in the u. s And so we raised them, uh with those three languages and they got some english Reading obviously in school, but our little one started reading in german and in spanish without anyone formally teaching him just by, I don't know, listening to the, to his, uh, older, you know, sister or by, I don't know, listening to us read to him and figuring out how the words are supposed to sound or, uh, you know, whatever the case might be, he started reading in, in two more languages without formal instructions.

And I'm like, So evidently, you know, kids learn if you just let them and the learning pace and what they are learning might not always be what you think they should be doing or how quickly they should be doing, you know, certain things at a certain age, but nonetheless, you know, they learn every day by just doing what they are doing.

And we follow, you know, we unschool. So we don't have a curriculum. You know, the only thing that we, I guess, enforce, if you will, is, is math. You know, I think you need to be able to count. You need to be able to read, uh, to find the information that you, that you need, you know, that you have not learned yet.

Um, and so, but everything else is pretty much child led and, uh, and they are progressing. Um, You know, differently, you know, there are certain things that our daughter is incredibly good at. There are certain things our son is incredibly good at, um, where they are ahead of the curve, you know, in some areas they are behind the curve, but at the end of the day, you know, at some point they know what they need to know to be successful by just, you know, being exposed all the time to all the opportunities and all the information they, they need, you know, it's just a matter of when are they interested in, interested in certain things.

And then you want to, you know, obviously enforce and encourage that. Uh, but don't freak out about, you know, stuff that they might not be super interested in at the time. 

James Barry: But I, did you, you know how they came up with the academic system in terms of like what, what they teach at 12th grade and what they teach in third grade.

So basically what they did was they. They took what do you need to know in college? So by when you actually go to college, what is what are the What are the criteria that you need to be there? And then they just went backwards And so it has nothing to do with what is the child actually developed? To learn at that age has nothing to do with it.

It's it's and and I think that's the biggest mistake the American school system has done is is that we're we're not basing on optimal Um ages for kids to learn. I mean, most people learn math way better, uh, when they're older versus younger. 

Michael Kummer: I was about to say, you know, I, I recently, well, two years ago, I had to build, I already built a chicken coop.

Right. And so I had to get, you know, the, the angles of the, the roof and everything. Right. And I'm like, I remember at some point, In my, you know, in school, I knew how to calculate, you know, the angles. If you know one side and one angle, you can, you know, calculate the rest. But of course I don't remember that formula, you know, but I went and looked it up and now it, you know, I just looked at it and I go, it makes total sense.

This is how it works. You know, back in the days, you know, I was struggling, you know, understanding and memorizing all of that stuff that I then didn't need for 30 plus years. Uh, but now that I'm older and my brain is more developed, you know, I look at some of the things that appeared incredibly complex back then, uh, and And they just make sense because my brain is, you know, has the capacity of, of figuring it out.

Right. And I, you know, it's amazing. It's 

James Barry: amazing. I, I, same thing for me. I struggled with math when I was younger. And then in my early twenties, I was a substitute teacher and I happened to get put in math classes sometimes, and I would have to teach them these things. And I would, I remember I would look at the, the work that they were doing and I'm like, Oh my, like it suddenly just all made sense to me in my twenties that I struggled to do it when I was their age, you know, when I was in my teens.

And so absolutely, yeah, it's, it, it, it's, it's so specific to development and, and really, you know, there've been studies, um, they were basing intelligence off of creativity. And so, on a certain level, everyone is intelligent, you know, when they're first born up to a certain age. And then they showed how once school started, formal school started, how their definition of intelligence started to go down.

Because kids became less and less creative. And what happens as well, as we all know, and what so many people are struggling with now, is we also become less joyful. 

Michael Kummer: Right. 

James Barry: Right. And so, um, I, I really do think, I, I, I imagine one of the things you're either are starting to see and or will see is your children are going to be more creative and hopefully more joyful by the unschooling you're doing.

So kudos to you and your wife. 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. 

James Barry: Now, um, slight change of subject, but I have to admit, I'm a little curious about this. Um, what. we both chose in this health industry to really focus in on organ meats. Yeah. So what, what brought you to organ meats? 

Michael Kummer: Yeah. Um, good question. Yeah. It's, um, it, I mean, At some point, you know, we, I realized that, you know, we gotta eat, you know, the whole animal, you know, and not just the ribeye, right?

Um, and that really, and, and, you know, then I talked to, you know, my mom and, you know, my grandmother who's still alive, she's now 92, you know, and, and see what, you know, the foods that they used to eat and how they used to cook, you know? Um, and I'm like, well, And they are, she's 92 and, and healthy, you know, so I'm like, evidently they did something different, you know, and then looking even further back, you know, in, in human history, um, and, and seeing what, you know, how modern, you know, hunter gatherer tribes, what they eat and how, you know, how animals eat in the wild, you know, be it wolfs or what have you, you know, they all eat the organs.

And then, you know, looking more into the, the nutritional aspects, I figured, well, you know, those are really the true, you know, super foods and multivitamins that we have access to and that we should be eating. And that really started, you know, the conversation in our family and how we can incorporate, you know, organ meats, you know, be it, you know, hiding them in meatballs and whatnot.

And at some point, you know, I discovered three strides, beef organ supplements and we started buying them, you know, from some of our friendly competitors. And then my wife said, you know what, um, you really, you know, in addition to all of the, you know, digital content that you put out, I think it would be good to have a physical product.

And I'm like, well, you know, as part of my blogging, I test and review and, and, and try so many different products. And usually I take them for a while and then I stop. But there is this one thing that I could consider myself using for the rest of my life and that's organs, you know, organ meat supplements in particular because of the convenience, you know, um, 

James Barry: do you notice a difference?

Did you notice a difference when she started it in court? Did you guys already have your kids by then? Or 

Michael Kummer: yes. Uh, yeah, no, we already had 

James Barry: a change in your, your health or theirs. 

Michael Kummer: Um, not in mine because at the time I was already eating fresh organs on a regular basis. Um, so I couldn't really tell it. I felt significantly better or different.

Um, but. In my family, especially in my extended family, the ones that are, you know, kind of, you know, getting inspired by what we do and then trying to implement some of those changes into their own life. You know, my best example is my brother in law, you know, uh, the other day, you know, he said, you know what?

you know, beef organs, I mean, you know, that organ mix, my energy levels are significantly different. And I'm like, you know, you don't have to tell me stuff, you know, there is nothing to gain for you by telling me that if it's not true. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm, I'm, I'm dead serious. You know, if I take those beef organs, you know, my energy levels are significantly better.

If I don't, You know, I have fluctuating energy levels, even though, and they've been trying to do a lot of things better. So they are on the right path already. And so I think at some point that'll probably level off and they, you know, get what they need from, you know, the food that the regular food that I eat.

But according to him, you know, it's made a significant difference likely because he was deficient, maybe an iron or B12, or, you know, some of those other micronutrients that are responsible for, you know, energy production. in the mitochondria. And I hear that from a lot of people, um, you know, friends and family.

And I'm like, I kind of wish almost I was still on a standard American diet when I started, you know, taking those supplements, because I wish I, you know, I would have firsthand experience and can say, yes, I felt that too, because I, you know, I did not. Um, but one thing I obviously noticed with the kids and really, you know, our, you know, The core of our family here.

Uh, we are barely ever sick. Uh, we are thriving, you know So whatever is that we are doing seems to be working, you know, what role the organ meets, um in a play It's hard to tell you know, uh, but I I like to think I I I take them every day simply because You know, there are always little gaps, you know, my diet isn't perfect, our kids diet isn't perfect, you know, there are environmental factors, there are, you know, elevated stress levels that we are not supposed to be, you know, exposed to, but we are anyway, uh, there are, you know, environmental toxins, there are so many things around us that kind of, you know, that we have to fight against from an immunity perspective, I just want to cover my base and say, okay, I'm going to provide my body with all the micronutrients it needs to You know, it, it'll take what it needs and discard the rest, you know, that's kind of how I see it.

James Barry: Isn't it interesting, you, you made a comment even when you were sharing this about, you know, friendly, um, like that you originally were ordering your organ meat supplements from friendly businesses, you know, businesses that you, you don't see as competitors, but it's, it's friends and allies, right? Right.

Isn't that interesting now? Um, I'm wondering if this is your experience kind of in this community of I don't know what you would even call the community We're part of whether it's meat eating or whole animal community But isn't it interesting how my experience of it is that? None of us are competitive.

We're all just trying to raise the ship forever You know, it's like we're just trying to promote whole animal like so however you do that. We're all winning People I talked to that's what they say and you're clearly like that um I just find most industries not like this where, where everyone's rooting for each other because it's more about the mission than it is about an individual.

Michael Kummer: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, absolutely true. And, you know, it's, the thing is we are such a niche, you know, there are such a, a huge population that can benefit from, from eating better. Right. Um, I don't see in my lifetime that we'll exploit that entire market, you know, and are saturated because everyone is eating organs.

I don't think that will ever happen. Um, and so it's, it's also, I think, relatively easy to be in a more laid back because. It's not cutthroat, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, there is, there are so many, you know, customers out there who, who can benefit from our products. Um, and if they win, we win, I mean, it's a, it's like a win win and it's, it's, it's fun, you know, to play in that, uh, in that pond and, and, and kind of, you know, help everyone out because there are so many people who come to me who, you know, tried something else and then they are trying mine and then I might, you know, and, and also, I think we also kind of, You know, inspire, you know, each other a little bit.

For example, I just, the other day, um, I saw that Heart and Soil is, you know, has launched a new animal based product and they came up, you know, the packaging, they use like a cardboard kind of a tub, right? And I'm like, this is ingenious because when we launched our collagen and colostrum, I'm like, I can't do it in glass, which all of our supplements are in glass, but this one.

It's just too heavy, you know, breakage and cost of shipping. Nobody would be able to buy it because it's too expensive. And I didn't even know there is such a thing as a cardboard, you know, top that I could use that would hold the powder, you know, for two years without spoiling. And I'm like, that's ingenious.

You know, they did it. Now I'm going to copy it. Not because, you know, I'm a copycat, but I think because it's a great idea. And I like to think that maybe in some other cases. You know, people copied from us and, you know, we all, you know, produce better products and, and, and help hopefully help more people get healthy.

So I think it's, it's awesome. 

James Barry: Yeah. That's, that's really inspiring. I, I, I'm that's something I've been, well, packaging has been, is always an issue. Like, like I've been in the packaging industry in a sense, since 2000 and. 7. When I started my meal delivery service. I don't own that anymore, but even then packaging was a huge issue because What I wanted didn't exist.

Michael Kummer: Yeah 

James Barry: And to this day, I'm constantly always looking for the most eco friendly packaging But even like as you probably you know You just mentioned this a lot of people when they think about packaging particularly businesses They don't always think about the many touch points When you're a direct to consumer business, you have to think about, okay, if it's heavy, then that means I'm using more fossil fuels to not only ship it to my co packer, but also to ship it out to my customers.

There's breakage, as you mentioned. So if it's something that can break, you got to wrap it in more stuff, more fossil fuels there. And then if it does break, you got to ship it again. And that's, you know, and so all these things contribute to not being very. planet focused or planet pro planet. And so I'm always trying to think about, well, how can I, what's the, you know, least the path of least resistance, but where I'm still walking my talk around, you know, planet, planet profit people, you know, the, the, the three P's.

Um, and like where one thing we're trying to do is we're going to move from our bags to shakers and We, I've been looking for a shaker that fits and I, and I'm think I'm going to be going with a craft paper shaker and that's foil lined. So it's still recyclable. Um, it's not, there's not a concern of leaching for the foil because it's not a hot product, you know, it's not that you're not cooking in it, anything like that.

And, um, And we're going to give it a test because I think it's gonna, you know, it's not going to be glass. It's not going to be, it's not going to look the way that most seasonings do on the market, but it's, it's, um, It's, I think it's, I don't know. Well, I'm curious to see how people respond to it. We're in the process of getting it out there now.

Um, but I'm hoping that people, that the story behind why we're choosing what we're choosing resonates with people. Cause I, I just think this is going to be way better for, uh, not only, um, the fossil fuel use of direct to consumer, but also, um, the end use in terms of that you can just simply recycle it.

Michael Kummer: Yeah, no, I totally agree. Speaking of, um, how did you get into mixing seasonings with organs? 

James Barry: Yeah, how did that come about? I am happy to report. I'm the first to do it. Um, Out there that tries to say that they That's not true. I will challenge them Because that that was why I did it is is because I was you know I've been a chef as I mentioned for a long time And i've had ideas over the years.

I had an idea for fermented condiments way back in the day, um, like where you're taking ketchups and they're fermented. So they're actually supporting your health versus just adding sugar to your diet. Um, I had an idea for concentrated bone broths before anyone was doing it, um, where you just simply add water and it's, and then that creates the bone broth.

So almost like a cury kind of bone broth. 

Michael Kummer: Right. 

James Barry: And I couldn't at the time when I had those ideas, I was, I had my meal delivery service. So I couldn't. pivot. I was so swallowed by that business. That business was so overwhelming because I had built it incorrectly. I had not built it. I built it as though I was private chefing for a hundred or more people, which is not scalable.

Um, and, and so I made a big mistake when I started that. I, I, I tried to take my private chef sensibilities and support everyone in that way. And it's just not scalable. So as we got bigger, it got crazier and crazier. And we tried to pivot and pivot. it was just like, it was a real, real bear. And, um, and so when I sold that business and I was, you know, had some time to get my creativity back.

That's when I got the idea of pluck and taking those freeze dried desiccated organs that we already knew existed and combining them with shelf stable, dry spices and herbs. And making a shelf stable seasoning that's, that's not only flavorful, but it's functional. It's actually supporting your health.

When I got that idea, I just was like, I can't, I can't let this one go, because if I, if I don't do this, someone else is gonna end up with it. And, and so I jumped on it, and we're now in our fourth year, and You know, I love, it constantly surprises me. Um, it, it constantly, I'm constantly in awe of it because there's so many things and I'm sure you get this as well.

Like you, you have an idea when you start a business, what you're trying, your mission or what you're trying to do. But the more people it reaches, you learn that there are new things that people gain from it. Or there are new ways that you're supporting someone's health that you never even conceived.

Right. It just becomes much more fuller than you ever could imagine. And that's definitely been my experience, but it mostly came around having kids. So when I had my daughters, um, they both got sick pretty young. Um, My oldest is four years older than my youngest, but they both got, we were traveling to Canada when my youngest was, I think around one and a half or two and they got shiga toxin, which is a form of E.

coli and it's very deadly for, for, for very young kids. And it's deadly for elderly, the elderly as well. And my oldest starter got through it pretty quick. Like within three days and my youngest daughter though, it just held on and it wouldn't, she couldn't keep anything down. And I think it was like finally the eighth or ninth day and she was skin and bones.

I mean, she was already a very lean child, but she was, it was really scary. And I just remember thinking, um, she, she suddenly was able to finally hold down some toast. And you know, here we are people who care about health and I'm like, oh man, My kids get addicted to toast because that's all she'll eat, 

Michael Kummer: right?

James Barry: And uh, I I just was looking at that toast and I was going like Gosh, I wish there was something I could put on there. That would just make it healthier You know like something I could just sprinkle on or something and and that's where the idea for well That's kind of put me down the rabbit hole of like well, what's the most nutritious food?

It's organ meats 

Michael Kummer: Right You 

James Barry: How, how can I make, but, well, but obviously there's three main hurdles with organ meats. There's the people think they're gross. They don't know how to cook them and they don't know how to source them. And so we have means of getting them the way your company is and many, and a few others, like where you, where you get the encapsulated powdered organ meats and you swallow them.

Right. But you know, a lot of kids can't necessarily do that. And And it's also, we do run into issues sometimes with, with any supplement, which is you get supplement fatigue. You just kind of go in and out, 

Michael Kummer: right? 

James Barry: You sometimes you're consistent, sometimes you're not consistent. So as a chef, I was like, well, how do I, it's, it's no different than what we've already talked about with how do I support health, but remove those hindrances, remove those, those issues, those human qualities of And that's when I was like, well, we already seasoned our food.

This is something we do every day, multiple times a day. So if I can just turn it into something that we do daily, then it becomes an autopilot, something now anyone could do. There's still obviously a place for taking capsules because my product, well, at least we have four products. We have three that have seasonings, uh, and then also have red Monreal salt.

So we have three that, uh, have salt and seasonings and herbs. Um, they all have the organ blend, the liver, heart, kidney, spleen, pancreas. But then the fourth one is just the organ meats. So that's comparable to your capsules. And so we were just trying to cover all of them, but there's still, of course, a place like when someone, when someone just wants to be done with it, doesn't want to think about it, capsules are great.

You swallow your capsule, you're done. Uh, if you've been tested and you know that you're anemic, you know that there's something going on. The capsules are our pure bag or the way to go because then you're getting a hundred percent of that Organ meat and you can you know, you can really modulate it based on your need, right?

Right. The other, the seasoning ones, what, how I look at those ones is, is they're really just gateways. So anyone that comes to either of us and is like, oh, organ meats, I just, no, I can't, you know, they're so resistant. To me, pluck is like, it's just a gateway. It's just like, okay, if organ meats are the gateway to nutritional abundance.

then the seasonings are just a gateway to the organs. Right. Because we, they don't taste, it doesn't taste like organs. And it's not in a form, you're not, it's not a wet organ. You're not thinking about like when you sprinkle it on there, you don't even think about it being an animal organ. Right. So, so we're messing with your perception of what organs are.

You don't even have to cook it. So we're messing with that concept. So it just makes it so easy to assimilate. And then because you're eating it, you're, it's exactly what I talked about earlier, you're shifting your palate. Right. To then, hopefully, be someone like yourself who actually cooks organs. So like the goal is to, you start one place, but then you get to a place where maybe you're cooking them yourself and eating them.

And to me, if we can get people there, then we're, we're all winning. You know, cause not only is it, cause, cause the reality is, is like both of our products are going to be more expensive because they're freeze dried. But if we can get people to eat, eat organs before they're freeze dried, then now we're truly making organs, we're making health, uh, doable for anyone's pocket, but because organs, uh, I'm always pointing this out to people.

If you're someone who looks at eating meat. And you're like, oh, it's so expensive, right? And you're looking at that 24 bucks a pound, right? Well, the same 100 percent grass fed cow has an, has a tongue, has a liver, has a heart, has some kidneys, right? It's like, and these parts of that animal are not 24 a pound.

They, they're sometimes three to four to seven dollars a pound. I mean, incredibly less. 

Michael Kummer: Mm hmm. 

James Barry: So, anyone that's kind of complaining that, well, this animal based diet or eating meat is, is too expensive, I'm just like, well, eat, eat the organs, and if you want, start with the, start with the ones that are closest to muscle meat, start with either the heart or with the tongue.

Michael Kummer: Yeah, I mean, the tongue is, I think, The most delicious part of the animal as far as I'm concerned the kids love it I remember the first time we cooked tongue. They're like this the best meat we've ever had. I'm like, well, it was tongue It's 

James Barry: more it's more delicious So it's got more flavor. It's more delicious.

It's more nutritious And it's cheaper. Yeah It's a win win win, huh? Yeah, it's like Why is it why aren't more people doing it? 

Michael Kummer: Yeah Probably because preparation and peeling it and stuff People see that they have probably turned off but once you have passed that and put it in the slow cooker Maybe with some tomato sauce or whatever can't beat can't beat tongue 

James Barry: No, it's so good.

And it's and it shows up in many other cultures. I mean in Mexico, it's lengua and and It's anytime you go to an authentic taco place. They're gonna have lengua. It's a staple in Mexican cuisine And it's delicious and it's and once you as you said once you learn how to cook it It's not hard at all. No, it's very very easy 

Michael Kummer: All right, well we're on the top of the hour, um, I much appreciate it a lot of good information if there is any Discount codes, links, what have you.

I know you sent me already a bunch of stuff in the, in the sign up or the intake form, but anything else you want to mention, um, that I can put in the show notes or even overlay, uh, in the final edit, then let me know. Yeah. 

James Barry: Well, let's, let's get your audience a discount. What would you like it to be? 

Michael Kummer: Um, if you could make it a primal shift, 

James Barry: primal shift, that will be a 15%.

Awesome. 

Michael Kummer: All right. Perfect. 

James Barry: Actually, let's make it 20. Let's go for it, man. 20%. All right. 

Michael Kummer: We'll do 

James Barry: that. Primal shift, uh, and that will be 20 percent off. And, um, that will be all, all, uh, we'll, we'll have that. Do you want it to be all caps or do you want it to be the capital P, capital S? What would you prefer?

Michael Kummer: Uh, all caps, please. 

James Barry: Okay. So all caps, primal shift, 20 percent off. You go to eatpluck. com, um, to get the discount. And I'll email you the, the stuff for the show notes, but, uh, Cool. You can find, uh, more information about Pluck at EatPluck, that's our handle on socials, and my personal one is ChefJamesBarry, but truly, uh, Michael, thank you for just being a team player, and just for your camaraderie, we, we, we met at conferences, and every time I see you it's such a joy, and, uh, um, really just, uh, Respect everything that you're doing and particularly I love learning how you're raising your kids and And what you and your wife are choosing to do.

I just I just really honor you for that. It's not easy. So, uh, appreciate that

Michael Kummer: Thank you, I appreciate that All right, cool. Well with that we can wrap it up. Um, hopefully we'll all see and hear you in the next episode 

Extra: Imagine you're out for a walk breathing in fresh air feeling great But what if the way you're breathing is holding you back? In the next episode, we dive into how breath retention holds can unlock better fitness, mental clarity, and resilience, all without taking extra time out of your day.

We'll break down how something as simple as holding your breath can boost your CO2 tolerance and transform your performance. Trust us, you'll never think about breathing the same way again. Don't miss it.