31: From Vegan to Carnivore: A Deep Dive into Diet and Lifestyle with Bates

Michael: You're listening to the Primal Shift Podcast. I'm your host Michael Kummer and my goal is to help you achieve optimal health by bridging the gap between ancestral living and the demands of modern society. Get ready to unlock the transformative power of nature as the ultimate biohack, revolutionizing your health and reconnecting you with your primal self.

I invited Bates to join me on this episode. Bates used to work for three years under Dr. Paul Saladino as the lead health coach for his brand Hardened Soil, which, as you might know, is our friendly competitor. You know, since we also, with MK Supplements, sell beef organ supplements. But that's not the main reason why I decided to invite him and to get, you know, background information.

I invited Bates because he's been spending the past 14 years on experimenting, doing self experimentation in terms of diet, nutrition, exercise, sleep, and many, many other things that helped him improve his health and get on a better path towards health. And he's now applying the same principle, a very analytical and strategic approach to helping others as a coach improve their health and well being.

And so we had a, an awesome discussion diving into all of the things that he does, that he has tried, that have worked for him, that haven't worked for him, and that he sees has have been working with his clients to help them improve their health and well being, so join me in welcoming Bates. This episode of the Primal Shift podcast is brought to you by MK Supplements.

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Learn more at shop. michaelkummer. com or check out the show notes. All right, Bates, thanks for taking the time for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I mean, we've been talking on and off before we met first at, I think at Ketocon, right, when we were still, when you were still with Heart Soil, one of our friendly competitors, you know, when we talked about, you know, bringing you on the show, you mentioned, well, one of the things you, you could talk about, you would like to talk about is some of the, you know, social aspects of doing the right thing for our health, for our own health, for your health, right?

But also from a, you know, moral standpoint, what are, what are some of the implications and issues that we see all the time, you know, with people trying to make better choices, but ultimately don't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, so I'd like to, you know, hear your take on what those reasons are, and maybe If you have solutions to some of those things or at least pointers that people can say, you know what, I'm going to try this out and see if I cannot overcome, you know, my mental hurdle of maybe removing potato chips from a diet or whatever the case might be, you know, or maybe eating meat because, you know, you're convinced that, you know, eating plants is, is better for the environment, better for the animals and better for the planet, you know, and better for your health, you know, so maybe let's talk about some of those things and, Some of the reasons first, and then maybe, you know, dive into some of the solutions that you've seen have worked for many people, because you are a coach, right?

You, you, you handhold a lot of people and that's maybe, you know, one other thing that, you know, we can talk more about the need for handholding for, you know, certain groups of the population, you know, not everyone is going to just run with the information they have. They need guidance, you know, and that's where people like you come into the equation and guide them along the way so they can then be on their own and continue making good decisions.

Yeah,

Bates: the thinking about what might cause someone to hamstring themselves for making the right decisions from their, for their health is a very interesting concept. If I'm to quickly come up with a few of the main things that I believe contribute to that, I think one is, It's really the whole social aspect behind choosing what you eat.

It's unfortunate that it's almost political, and by that I mean polarized and dogmatic. And so I think that's a big ticket to why people maybe don't battle the mainstream narrative of what health looks like, is because there's social implications to their actions. I think another thing too is we're paralyzed by so many different opinions and philosophies and theories and modalities that people will, will just pick whatever makes sense from what they believe to be true from, you know, their peers or the news or, or whatever their sources of gathering information.

They don't want to have to figure it out for themselves. They just want someone to tell them what to do. So I think it's, it's a lack of action as a result of analysis paralysis. Paralysis. I think that's the second point. And if I was to draw a third point, I think it's a lack of follow through because of being distracted by the things that come with modernity.

So if I, if I'm going to break those down. The social point is, is pretty much what I said. It's, it's a, it's a really, it's a shame that things are so polarized because what you should be doing, I believe, is experimenting. You should never really be taking anybody's word for anything without looking into it yourself.

But because socially it's such a statement, like I remember when I thought Being vegan was the right move, right? I thought ethically and nutritionally, that was the way to go. I was vegan for a year, and I got accosted, I mean, basically crucified, in certain social gatherings, whether that was, you know, at my in laws at the time, or out with, like, friends.

I hardly ever brought it up, but people would look at my plate. And they would say, why aren't you eating, you know, this, why aren't you eating, like, meat, or why are you eating tofu, whatever it was at the time. And I had to explain myself, and then it, and you could feel the tension build at the table. It was just like talking about politics at the family when you have two different sides, you know?

So, so I think that's An unfortunate downside to, to a lot of that is, is people feel like they're going to be judged for making experiments. So I think the first First, they are. Yeah, they are. Because it is that polarizing. Yes. So the first thing we have to do, I think, is divorce this idea from ourselves that You will be judged for experimenting.

The second thing, when it comes to being, or really suffering from analysis paralysis, is pick one thing and do it. You know, I don't know if you're this way, I would love to hear, because I'm actually not sure how you got into this way of eating, but for me, the only way I got into eating animal based and living the lifestyle, that I do now, which I don't know if this is where I will, what I will do for forever, but out of everything I've tried, it is the most beneficial to me so far.

I had to get here from picking one thing. It's like an elimination diet of diets. Right. It's like a section of diets where you have to try one thing for enough time to see if it works and then take a nugget from that thing and kind of let the rest fall to the wayside, bring that nugget to the next experiment and take a nugget and so on and so forth until you find something that works for you or that feels really good.

And I think people are doing much more research and not enough application. So again, that's, that was my second point. And then my third point was follow through, which is probably really a subset of the second is that people are giving up before they have enough or rather ample time to see results, to know if what they're doing is actually making a difference.

And that's a very nuanced discussion because we could talk about, you know, blood work, DEXA scans, even just feeling, feeling better, the intuitive a sense of, of becoming healthier. But I think what it boils down to is people are quick to throw in the towel. And as you and I know, acclimation phases are a very real thing and it's very important to do something personally.

I tell people 90 to 120 days minimum, some habits and some little things, you know, 30 days is probably enough. but for a lifestyle change, it's not, it's not quick, you know, it takes some dedication.

Michael: Yeah, I agree that, you know, when, when you say, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of, you know, of making decisions based on how I feel, right?

The problem with that is you almost have to have experienced at one point at least what it feels to feel great. And how it feels to feel crappy. Right? So you need a certain, I guess, bandwidth of experience to kind of judge is something making me truly feel good? Or is it just a little different? Or because in the past, you know, 20 years ago, when you asked me, how do you feel?

I would say awesome. Great. You know, nothing wrong. Now I know that I, Okay. used to feel shitty. It was just my baseline. I didn't know any better, you know, so that's a problem. And that's why I think experimenting over extended periods, you know, helps you to really get an idea of what makes you feel good in a sustainable manner.

Because very often, you know, if you come from a standard American diet and you remove all processed foods and all meat, I mean, you basically go vegan from a standard American diet, I would argue you'll feel better. Because you're eating whole foods now, right? Maybe

Bates: not the whole food. Right. Avoiding process.

Right. So

Michael: by removing certain things, you know, you, you made yourself feel better, which is great, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the pinnacle of, of how great you, you can feel. Because I would argue. that by eating only plants, you might not actually feel as good in the long run. You know, once your gut has started suffering, once your bones have gotten weaker, et cetera, you know, and, and, and those kinds of things that are very difficult to pinpoint.

I mean, I don't feel if my bone density is good. You know, if I break something like I had, you know, this coworker a couple of years ago, she tripped, you know, jogging and broke her hip. She was in her thirties, you know, you, you don't break your hip, you know, with proper bone structure, you know, just because you tripped.

So, obviously those are the indications that maybe something might be off, but even in a bloodwork, she might not have experienced or noticed that because calcium is, you know, very stable in your blood, you know, your body leeches it from the bone to maintain stable calcium levels, but you would see it then in a DEXA scan, you know, what you mentioned, you know, so it's really a combination of, Of things that, including or adding in how you feel to kind of assess, you know, what's happening.

And back to your point of decision fatigue, you know, I always go, I don't know, I think I actually heard it. Do you know that show, The Unit, I think it was like an HBO maybe or whatever. It was like, you know, special forces, Delta force kind of, you know, show or surrounding a group of, of, well, the unit, a unit of Delta force operators.

And I think that guy once said, if there is no more new information, it's time to make a decision. You know, and that kind of stuck in my head, instead of trying to figure out more and more and more, and I might not be getting more quality information, just call it, run with it, and see how it works. If it doesn't work, change, you know, but being stuck on that same decision point, you know, for weeks or months is not going to bring you forward, you know, and it's better to make a quick mistake than, you know, not

Bates: to do anything.

Right. And that's what I love about health is that it's parallel to so many other things in life. Because I would argue that that same principle is true for businesses, whether you are in a job, getting a job, building a business for yourself, in relationships. Like, the further that you procrastinate decision making or taking action to understand something, the higher the opportunity cost becomes.

And obviously with health, health is wealth, and time is finite, and our attention is almost even more finite than time, I wonder, in this day and age. And so Every time that people are delaying gathering experience through experimenting, they're paying that opportunity cost, but it's, it's almost incognito.

I don't think a lot of people realize that they're paying such a steep price. So I mean, and it comes back to other things, right? I think there's something beautiful about being unabashedly yourself. So along this journey of doing wild experiments, before I moved to Austin, where things are a little more accepted in terms of being kind of like odd or.

You know, lost and weird is still a real thing, especially in the diet and the lifestyle back home in Virginia. There's lovely people that I grew up with. I was very fortunate to be around them, but the things that I experimented, I was the only one, right? You know, I was the black sheep by and far, but you start to become comfortable with doing these odd things and it becomes fun.

You know, that you become, I like to say you have the mind of a true scientist because scientists nowadays They're being paid to prove an outcome. The true mind of a scientist is someone who is open to learning. And so you're experimenting for the sake of gaining knowledge that was previously unbeknownst to you.

And that excites me. And so I think When people can lean into that, they also start to become one more unfiltered version of themselves. And I would argue from a self development standpoint, that that's one of the most beneficial things people can do because the more unfiltered you are, the less agreeable you become.

And so become more valuable. to yourself and the people around you, whether that's in your personal and professional life. And so, I like that those things have some cohesion, because I think it's a really valuable principle in and outside of the health space. Yes.

Michael: In addition, you know, I truly believe that You know, I, you know, think of, you know, the importance of, you know, elections or, you know, your, your right to vote and all of those things, you know, what do you want?

You know, but I always feel like I want to take control of the things that I have control. I kind of, you know, want to live in my three feet world. You know, going back to, I guess, military principles, you know, control what you have, what's right in front of you and not, you know, whatever, you know, you might not even have control over or where a million other people, you know, are, are trying, you know, to influence.

the outcome. And so whenever I'm the odd man out, and I'm very often, you know, too still, you know, even though you might think that eating an animal based diet that actually includes vegetables and fruits, you know, certain of those, at least, you know, it should be relatively okay in society, but it's not.

And so I always, you know, take it as a teaching moment. And obviously, because, you know, that's kind of, you know, I, I earn my money by, you know, putting information out. But even if I wasn't, and you know, even before I earned a dollar, you know, doing what I do, I always felt like, share what you know, so at least, you know, other people can think about that, and see if that makes sense to them, or if it doesn't, or question you, or challenge you, whatever the case might be.

But at the end of the day, You know, we are all influencers and, and we, you know, in, in our circles, in our family, in our, you know, with, within our friends, within our, you know, communities, we are all influencers, you know, and people are influenced by others, you know, and so if you know something that you truly believe is right, be it, you know, eating plants only or meat only or something in between, you know, explain to others why you're doing what you're doing.

And, you know, what the reasoning behind it is and encourage them to be, if nothing else, more conscious about what they do, you know, that might impact their health. And it goes obviously beyond nutrition, you know, be it sleep, be it exercise, be it stress management, be it community, all of those pillars, you know, that, that are important for maintaining a somewhat optimal or healthy life, you know, you can influence, you know, and you should.

And you should, you know, get feedback, be it positive or negative. And think about what are people trying to tell you? You know, are they scared, you know, because they give you a negative feedback? Are they, maybe they don't know any better or are they just idiots? You know, possible too, but in most cases, it's, you know, people are not, you know, evil, you know, by default.

There is always some people might, might just not know, have never been exposed to even, you know, anything remotely similar to that concept that you're presenting. But it might be enough for them to say, you know what, I'm going to think about that because that's how I got into, or my wife and I really got into improving our lifestyle habits, not only the diet, by having someone, an odd person out who ate a, or followed a paleo diet, and I'm like, what the heck is wrong with that person, you know, and it happened to be a close friend of ours.

And he was, he was not the, you know, the guy with the, hey, you know, you have to, you know, stop eating corn or stop eating grains or whatever, he would just do his thing, you know, and sometimes I would ask stupid questions like, you know, why on earth, you know, are you not eating this or that, and, and he would explain to the best of his knowledge, and that got me thinking, and my wife thinking, and, you know, years later, you know, here I earn, you know, money at the end of the day.

By, you know, getting that information out and hoping that more people will catch on to start thinking about what they do. And I think that's something that you should not underestimate your ability to influence others.

Bates: That's a great, that's a great point. And there's a few things out, out of what you said that I think we should, we should highlight for, for people listening.

Cause it's really interesting. First of all, a lot of people are not inherently. Evil, the grand majority of people, right? What they are is misled. And if they're misled, how do you make sure you're not misled? Critical thinking. And that's what you're talking about is your there's this infectious and for once since 2020 the good kind of infection of of challenging things and thinking for yourself and experimenting.

That's critical thinking. And for me critical thinking is it happened first in my health and my fitness. But then it bled over to all these other areas and the whole adage about how you do one thing is how you do anything, I think is, is very relevant. So once you have the benefit in that one vector, it goes to the others and people who are odd, which is a good, a good term because it inherently means different and interesting, right?

People who are odd really do capture your attention. And it's funny that your friend, you were the one going to him asking questions because what I've noticed over my years and, You know, working for Heart and Soil with clients and talking to tons of people about this is that if you offer unsolicited advice, no one is going to listen to that.

They're not going to just be, if you tell them what to do, the odds of them making a change or thinking critically are low. But if you just walk the walk and you're open enough that People like you who are curious will ask. They'll start to think for themselves. It's more about the, the adage about teaching a man to fish as opposed to giving them the fishes, as how I like to think about it.

But it's interesting because there's also this metaphor where you have to, they're like a cat, you have to let them approach you. You can't just force yourself to like give them attention when they don't want it. And, and I think, I think that's really important for people to know because when you experience something that's so beneficial and just life altering, you want to shout it from the rooftops, but that can often turn people off and push them away.

So I think the more tactical approach is to just lean into what you're doing because people are very observant, whether they say anything or not. So they will see changes in your life. They will see changes in your disposition, your attitude, your health. You're, you know, you will radiate on multiple fronts, and that will make them more curious and think more critically and that will bring more people into this fold where they're challenging a lot of the things in our world related to health or bettering their own health and then that will bleed into other things and then hopefully maybe a less, a less polarized world, maybe two eventually as that wave

Michael: spreads.

So what is your take on, you know, if, if, if I knew nothing, you About how to improve my health and I just, you know, I, I might, you know, Google, I might listen to a podcast. I might listen, I might, you know, see stuff on Instagram or on social media. That's probably the most likely source of information for many people.

You know, I might hear other people talk about, you know, their, whatever product, supplements, diets they're on and then how it's, how it's working. You said it before, there is just so much information out there. I mean, you could really. You, you, you couldn't get more opposites than, you know, no, you should only be eating plants or you should only be eating meat.

I mean, that in itself, that we are having a discussion about, should you be eating only plants or only meat, you know, tells you everything you need to know about how polarizing, as you said before, you know, it can be, and there is just so much in between, you know, diets, modalities, there is a lot of money to be made, obviously with supplements, with.

You know, anything really. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a huge industry overall, right? What do you think the value is of just placing your trust blindly in someone who resonates with you and sticking with that for a while, instead of trying to chase, you know, try everything yourself. Because if you try every diet on the planet by yourself and every lifestyle modality, you'll be probably dead before you figure out what worked.

So do you think people should pick someone that. That sounds reasonable enough. Stick with that for a while and then modify versus just going vegan first and then carnivore first and then keto and then paleo and then, you know, whatever. That's,

Bates: that's a really great question because I kind of did what you said that's probably not.

I'm not very time effective where I tried probably a dozen diets for at least six to 12 months each. And then at the same time I was circulating through different kinds of exercises, workouts, lifestyles, natural hygiene, all these other experiments. So I had multiple experiments going on in different fronts.

And I feel like the amount of first hand knowledge I gained from all of that is invaluable. Right. What really got me the job at Heart and Soil helped push me to the position and leadership while I was there. And so, I would be a little bit of a hypocrite to say, hey, don't do that, but that path isn't for everybody, clearly.

So, and it was really 12 to 14 years of experimenting for me. So, if people want to do that kind of investment and there is a nerd for experimentation like I am, that's certainly a viable route where you will learn a lot and you'll have a lot of fun. And it gives you a lot of peace of mind. But for those people who don't have that kind of time, whether that's because of family obligations or business, or maybe they're in a worse spot with their health and they can't afford to waste that kind of time, I do think as cheesy as it sounds, use your intuition because you really don't have.

A method for parsing out truth from, you know, fiction or some sort of predatory idea from a business or a person or individual. And I do believe as humans we have an instinct where we can tell where people have good intentions and they're on a mission. So if the person in the health world that resonates with you, or their brand, or the mission of the company, It stands out and you're like, there's some truth to this.

I'm not sure exactly what or how much, but there's some truth to this. That would be the one I would suggest that people buy into because you're never going to be able to decipher precisely what the right one to start with is. So for me, it was going vegan wasn't the first one. Actually, I went paleo first, believe it, believe it or not, that one resonated with me a lot.

And it did get the critical thinking gears really going at a top speed, but it's probably different for everybody, depending, depending on where they're at. So again, I think the, the takeaway is find something that intuitively makes sense that you're excited about because you'll actually follow through.

It increases our probability of actually figuring out if this is the thing for you or not and, and do that for 90, 120 days. And then re evaluate. Did it make your life better? If so, in what ways? And again, take that nugget or nuggets and try something different. And I would say for me, I wasn't comfortable settling on one lifestyle, on one diet, until I had tried several.

And so I've been animal based and there's, I've done some experiments under that umbrella, but I've been animal based for three years now and it's the only one since, you know, 10, 12 years ago that I've done for more than six to 12 months. And that's because compared to all the others, I felt so much better.

So you were talking about your baseline before when you have, when you feel shitty, you have a shitty baseline, but when you try other things, you start to get a different spots over that grade. And then you can see a general trend and trajectory. So, there's no way to have a different baseline until you start to get different points on that data chart, that, that point.

That may not be as specific of an answer as you wanted, but I don't think that there's an easy way around it. And people could pick a shorter amount of time. Let's say you want to do something for 30 days. Sure, it doesn't have to be 90 or 120. And then you can get through a few experiments a lot quicker, but I don't believe, I would like to hear if you disagree.

But I don't believe anything worth doing is worth analyzing to see if it's beneficial in less than 30 days,

Michael: typically. No, you know, very often whenever you make a change, whatever the change is, you know, you might see, you know, short term, you know, negative or a positive impact. which might not be the end result of what you're doing, right?

As I said, you know, cutting out all processed foods will likely have a net positive effect. Is that gonna lead to optimal health in the long run just because you remove certain things and you're not getting things that your body needs? Probably not, you know, so there is a long term impact that you have to take into account on the flip side.

You know, there are many people who have been, especially in the, in the plant based world that have not had any real protein or real fat in, in forever. And then suddenly they eat meat and they guess, you know, they don't have enough digestive enzymes or, you know, the stomach chooses to digest, you know, the very foods that I think humans should be consuming.

And so they have a net negative effect in the beginning, but that doesn't mean it's not good for them, you know, following through and, and, and sticking to that to allow their bodies to, you know, Adjust and make enough enzymes, you know, get their enzyme levels back to normal levels, basically, and then have no issues whatsoever digesting meat.

I don't think there was any human on the planet who has from birth, you know, issues, digesting meat. That would be a very odd anomaly that I've never seen so far. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but you know, chances are it's something else. It's like

Bates: diet, diet whiplash, diet or lifestyle whiplash, whatever you're experimenting in, if it's an abrupt change, you're going to feel.

Yeah, the change in velocity. And that's why I think a minimum of 30 days is great, but also just an acclimation phase where you're Incrementally changing the amount of whatever you're doing different whether that's adding more more animal foods or exercising more or whatever It should not be this stark change because homeostasis is is real for humans on all fronts, not just, you know, physiologically, but psychologically.

So you have to have something to be, yeah, just more, more gradual to give you a higher probability of gaining insight on any kind of change. And like you said, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. And whether that's from a gut health. Perspective or something else like that. It's a very common thing that I see with a lot of people.

Yeah.

Michael: And then, of course, you know, mud is the waters, because someone tries something, feels immediately better, and then, yeah, this is the greatest thing, you know, ever, and then they, they want to stick to this, even though they, you know, they now feel worse again. But because they have this in their head, it worked in the beginning, so it's, I just have to double down on it.

I think that's one of the mistakes that a lot of dieters make. Just because something worked for a week, They keep doubling down on that, even though, you know, they are degrading. And it can go in the opposite direction, of course, as well. But what I, what I like to say, and I think it was Anthony Gustin who said it in one of the newsletters many, many months ago.

He's like, try to eat local, you know, try to know where your food is coming from, regardless of what type of food it is, be it, you know, animal based or plant based. If you know where it's coming from, how it was raised, you know, best case scenario, raise it yourself, right? But that's not possible for everyone, but at least know the farmer, you know, buy it locally, buy it seasonally, you know, don't get, you know, strawberries in winter, you know, that doesn't make any sense.

And just, you know, try to think of, okay, how, what would you do if you were in the wild, you know, and could only eat what's around you. Again, animal based, plant based, what have you. That's the food you should be eating, you know, and if it's, you know, modern processed stuff, chances are it's not great, regardless of if it's a, you know, the best keto friendly snack or the best vegan snack, if it's processed food.

Chances are it's not gonna be good because that food didn't even exist 30 years ago, you know?

Bates: I love the idea of eating seasonally, too. It's fun because if you have a strict diet, sometimes you miss out on novelty of different foods. But if you eat seasonally, you have things that are evolutionarily consistent that are baked into the year.

So, like, right now. Apples and squash, butternut squash and acorn squash are, are some of my favorites, which I don't really eat them outside of during, during the fall and some sweet potatoes too. And so, cause obviously those are, you know, tubers, which are medium toxicity based on like the animal toxicity gradient.

And then the other things are unsweet fruit, essentially, and, and I really enjoy those and I feel, feel great on them, but I don't want them all, I actually don't intuitively crave them all year round, but when the fall hits, I don't know if it's nostalgia or what, but that does apples and apple cider, they call my name and I think stuff organic and local is great.

and having those seasonal foods. I know you, I cut you off, but I wanted to say before I forgot, the, I'm afraid, one of my biggest fears, is to be that dieter you were talking about, where I'm just animal based until I die, and I don't know if there's a downside to what I'm doing, because even though I feel better compared to everything I've tried, I don't believe that we understand nutrition fully, or the human body fully.

I think we'll always be discovering things. So I have to be open to new information. But I'm still going to have conviction to be dedicated and disciplined to a modality that is benefiting me presently, because I could get, you know, analysis paralysis about what I don't know, and that's not productive.

So it's about having this conviction, but being open to change. And part of that is almost searching proactively for change, at least in my case. So every 120 days, I'm getting blood work, comprehensive blood work. I'm doing a DEXA scan and then I'm switching things up a little bit. So right now I'm animal based, but I'm going a little bit on the higher carb side of things to experiment.

And I'm including like oysters twice a week, getting a lot more vitamin E from foods and trying to support my thyroid to see if I can boost that up. It's not hypo, I don't have hypothyroidism and I'm not suffering, but I'm seeing if I can like push that a little bit. What foods are you

Michael: eating

Bates: with vitamin E?

So eggs, a lot of eggs, oysters, cranberry juice, organic cranberry juice, sweet potatoes, butternut squash, a lot of stuff like that. Obviously, A, E, D, and K are in a lot of animal foods, and so I also have bone marrow and things like that. But the, after this experiment, I'm going, after the blood work and the DEXA scan, I'm actually going to flip it.

But I have to have an acclimation phase, like we talked about, where I'm going to slowly transition into strict carnivore for 120 days, and then do the same thing. And so it'll be really interesting to see how that works out, because if I just ate the same kind of macros, micros, the same foods and animal base, I would be afraid of precisely what you were talking about.

And so I will want to do experiments under that umbrella to continue to test it and see if it really is the, the best version of what I could be doing, or if there are other things that I could be adding in or twisting or altering to, to fill in the cracks a little better.

Michael: I really like that idea. And you know, funny enough, I, uh, just a few days ago, I transitioned to a carnivore plus raw milk kind of approach.

You know, I, I used, before that I experimented with, you know, sourdough bread, uh, with white rice, you know, with some of the things that are obviously not animal based, but that's, you know, some argue, well, if you know how to prepare foods properly, you can make them part of your diet, like, you know, fermenting, you know, wheat flour to make sourdough bread or soaking rice or fermenting sweet potatoes, you know, to reduce the glycemic index and, you know, get some of the, uh, get some of the starches out that would then convert to potentially carcinogens when you, you know, fry the sweet potato fries.

And so I really liked that idea because. It's, it's not only psychologically, I think a win because if I can say, you know what, I'm going to try sourdough bread now, you know, I'm eating something that I would normally not recommend, you know, grains for people to consume, but I want to see, you know, I, I'm metabolically fairly healthy, I would argue.

You know, I want to see what that does to me, and I'm fairly in tune of how I feel, and, and, and I noticed, well, my skin starts breaking out a little bit more, you know, I'm, I'm more bloated, my body odor has changed, I'm like, well, say what you want, maybe some people can handle it better, I, I am not going to fall apart because I have a sourdough, you know, pizza, or a sourdough bread or whatever, but it doesn't seem to be conducive to how I feel and, and, and my health, you know, so I'm like, well, you know, maybe sourdough maybe once every two months, you know, when we have pizza night, we're going to make it sourdough home, you know, homemade pizza, et cetera, not ideal, but it's not going to, you know, impact me in any shape or form that I can't handle.

And, you know, then again, you know, switch back to like, you know, maybe more keto, maybe only do carnivore, maybe see there. I've recently heard Dr. Chaffee say, well, by removing coffee and all his, you know, all the little aches and Pains after workout have, have subsided. I tried that. I didn't see or feel any different whatsoever, but then again, maybe the coffee, you know, that one we buys, you know, is tested for, you know, toxins and mold and all of those things.

So maybe it's regular coffee that is more likely to cause issues or more, maybe I'm less sensitive to those things that are, that remain even in the best coffee we can, we can find. But it's fun nonetheless, you know, to, to do those experiments and to figure out what works for you, which might not work for someone else.

But again, I guess a certain framework, I'm not going to go out and, the other day someone actually commented on my, my IBS video on YouTube and was like, What happens if you eat mac and cheese and Burger King and whatever? I'm like, I don't know, and I don't give a shit because I'm not going to experiment with that.

I, you know, there is nothing to gain for me by eating Burger King, you know, or it doesn't really matter what it is. I'm like, why would I even consider making or doing such an experiment? Yeah, you should

Bates: try a gallon of gasoline a day and see. Yeah,

Michael: see how that, what that does to my stomach. Yeah. I mean, you know, there are limits to what I'm willing to do, but within those, you know, and, and, you know, one could argue, you know, eating sourdough bread for someone who is more on the meat based animal side is already a stretch, you know?

And, but I'm Perfectly comfortable making that stretch and, and, and, and learning for, you know, for others. So I can just say, Hey, you know, it might work for you. It might not work. You know, at the end of the day, you have to figure it out, but you also have to, I guess, have a certain framework to operate within, you know, again, being on a fast food diet, you know, it's not going to make a difference if you add or remove sourdough, you know, you're going to be a deep shit regardless, you know?

But yeah, no, I, I totally agree. I like that. And again, it's, it's like, it, it gives you for your brain. It's like, okay, I'm not really on a strict diet. I'm on a path that I choose and enjoy. And if today I choose to try sourdough or white rice or whatever, it's my decision. And I'm making this, you know, consciously, uh, and not because someone is telling me, or, you know, why, or, you know, criticizing me for all the things that I don't eat.

You know, it's, I think it's, it's mentally a very. Powerful tool, the ability to experiment because it means you're going to, you're going to keep making conscious decisions. Yeah,

Bates: I think what's really neat about that is it's essentially individual empowerment. And you're saying metaphorically, you're the scientist, put on the lab coat, put on your spectacles, get your little pocket protector with your pen so you can make all the scientific notes as the experiment unfolds.

But you're getting your ideas of what to experiment from, from people who are, have conviction in these areas of, of health, like, you, you know, you said about the coffee, that's actually something that I want to, I've given it up before, I've done that twice, but I haven't actually looked for the soreness as it relates to workouts, and so I did, I heard him say the same thing, and I want to try that.

And I also, when I do carnivore this time around, because I've been keto before I want to do it properly and I'm going to do it with a reduced sodium intake because that's not something I've tried. And I've heard that a lot of people, whether that's keto or carnivore, when they overdo the salt, that can actually add a lot of electrolyte maintenance issues.

And so I'm going to do a few things differently when I go through strict carnivore. I didn't come up with all those ideas on my own. I've heard other people say that they were. What would you say? There were hurdles that they overcame. Right. And that helped them perfect that mode of eating. And so I was like, okay, if it works for some people, I can include that in, in my experiment, but no one's saying you have to do this.

It's a conscious choice. Like you said, for me to be like, all right. And the, and the sake of knowledge and understanding and optimizing my world. I'm going to take a little bit of risk, but I know that my return on my investment is going to be exponentially more valuable than any short term risk that I take, and that's where the magic is, in my

opinion.

Michael: Right. There are actually two things that I, you know, if, if you, you know, start experimenting with your sodium intake, that, that's one thing, because I, you know, I always wonder, you know, how did our ancestors, Get six milligrams of sodium a day, you know, unless, you know, but, but here, here is the, the, the funny thing, I guess there is a, I'm sure there is a difference between, you know, salt as we consume it, which at the end of the day is processed to varying degrees and the minerals that are, let's say, you know, already resolved in In, in water, you know?

Yeah. And, and that,

Bates: or, or of juices

Michael: of animal foods or, or juices or even blood, you know, like the, you know, the, the, the Maasai, you know, they drink milk with mixed with blood, and that's, I guess, their source of electrolytes. And I don't have a good, you know, source of, of blood unfortunately, you know, to try that out, you know, so that's one thing where I wonder, because I know that if I, if, if, if I reduce my sodium intake, I feel, you know, my head isn't working right.

You know, I get, I cramp easily. There are a lot of signs that I'm like, no, I wanna, I'm going to increase my salt intake again because I feel better, you know, regardless of how I see it, what I like to, you know, think is, is, is correct. I feel better with more salt, you know, or electrolytes in general, but again, it, it, it doesn't completely add up, but then the other day, you know, we, we grabbed a bottle of, of German spring water and Gerolsteiner, so I looked at the back of the, of, of the nutrition label and it listed, you know, the amount of electrolytes in one liter of that bottle, and it was like a hundred milligrams of magnesium.

I'm like, holy moly, you know, this is, I mean, this is significant. This is not just, you know, a little trace amounts of whatever. No, there is, there are, there are real minerals in, in significant amounts in that water, only in the water. So if I would only be drinking that water, I probably would not be needing any extra electrolytes, you know, or add, you know, more salts than, than the necessary to my food.

So that's, that's one thing. And then the second thing I always wonder is. You know, the recommendation to eat slowly and chew your food well. I'm like, if I was, you know, one of the paleo dudes, you know, walking around and we finally, after seven days, you know, we hunted that, you know, whatever, I'm going to go to town, you know, I'm not going to eat and chew, you know, 30 times every bite, you know, I'm going to We'd be like a wolverine.

Exactly. And if I see our dog, you know, eating his, you know, they always say, Oh, if the dog doesn't eat his food, you know, within 15 minutes, you know, remove it because he's not going to eat it or doesn't need it. I'm like 30 seconds, you know, and three pounds of raw meat and bones is gone. You know, I'm like, so he didn't get the memo to chew, you know, he's chomping it down, you know, and so that's kind of the other thing I'm like, it doesn't really add up to me, you know, it should be, but then again, you know, if you feel better chewing slowly and, you know, and maybe also because there are so many other issues, like, you know, low digestive enzyme levels and, and, you know, bile juice levels and stuff from other lifestyle factors that make it necessary.

to chew and prepare, you know, your stomach, your digestive system from the food that's coming down. Maybe our ancestors never had those issues. They always had sufficient amounts of enzymes and, and bile juices. So whenever there was opportunity to eat, they would go to town. You know, I

Bates: like a lot of those.

Thoughts and questions because I do believe that questions are more important than answers a lot of the time because it reveals more Answers are so limiting because you decide that something is the truth and then you become complacent About what you had to know and so I it's funny. I had a similar thought maybe two weeks ago Watching my dogs eat because I feed them a raw diet I mean, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't consider what I what I practice and yeah They inhale it every time and it's gone gone like that.

And and so I know that's been a big thing lately I don't know how I feel about that. I don't know if that will be one of my experiments or not But as far as electrolytes, I've experimented a lot with that. I've, I've had experiments where I didn't drink any water or one glass a day because I thought three liters of recommendation was clearly too much and I was wondering if it was artificially depleting a lot of my electrolytes, you know, through urination.

And so this will be an interesting experiment with a low sodium. Since I've added a generous amount of salt in, I haven't tried anything like this. I, what I have read accounts of and even some studies on, mostly, you know, PubMed stuff. is, is that sodium can be addictive, not unlike other addictive things that can be found in foods.

And so, we talked about this acclimation phase. For people who are considering trying to reduce their sodium, do not have that diet whiplash. Do it incrementally because there's a lot of downsides to reducing that intake amount overnight. So that's why there's, for everything, I have to build in an acclimation period to all of my changes because I know switching too soon.

will not give me the insight or at least a unadulterated insight that I really want for that kind of experimentation. So we'll see, we'll see. I've been learning a lot because I've had some clients actually struggling with that as they're transitioning to either like a carnivore diet for the first time or from carnivore or paleo to animal based because they want to try it.

And the electrolytes, that's a really big deal for a lot of people because it, you know, they can have hypnotic jerks or Charlie horses or yes, excessive soreness. and all these other things. And so I really want to get to the bottom of it, not only for my sake, but for the people that I work with, which is also a beautiful two way street with my clients bring a lot of things to light that I haven't heard of.

And then I'm like, here's something else that I can experiment with or something else to learn. And that's a really nice thing to have, like to be dedicated to understanding, not only for yourself, for those around you and to come kind of come full circle with what you said. We're all influencers, right?

And luckily I get to do that a little more full time and like help people with that But even people who don't do any of that for work if they're doing these experiments whether they know it or not They're influencing the people around them and it gives you a little more sense of dedication and meaning and fulfillment and discipline To figure it out when You know that other people might benefit from the work that you're putting into your own health too.

And so that's something that's really important to remember when people are pushing through some experiments that might be a little more difficult or challenging or time consuming. Yeah.

Michael: All right. Cool. Well, we are at 45 minute mark, uh, 15 minutes over what we had planned, but it was an awesome discussion.

I really, I really liked it, really enjoyed it. My hope, you know, everyone watching this got some good information out of it and what, you know, what they can do, how they can, you know, navigate the jungle that is healthy living. You know, and then just do something, you know, be more intentional, you know, if nothing else, try something, you know, and see how it works.

And if it doesn't work, you know, change it. You know, it's not, not, not the end of the world. Um, it's a great learning process and I encourage everyone to, to try stuff out, to not just blindly follow, you know, be your own, you know, master, you know, make your own decisions, even if they are uncomfortable or unpopular, you know, the goodness is, you know, whatever you do, you're probably not the only one doing it, even though it feels like that sometimes.

But that's why we have, you know, communities like this, where we can get together and, and share what's been working, what hasn't, and, and encourage others to, to do the same. Um, before we wrap it up, where can people find you if they eat one tent holding? I know that you don't take a whole lot of clients, but nevertheless.

Bates: Right now, Instagram is mostly where people can find me. Animal Bates is my handle and that's my last name Bates, B A T E S, and it is a play on animal based. I love puns, so it's very appropriate, very on brand. And there's, I have a link tree on there if people want to see, you know, book a, book a free call to discover what it might be like to work together.

And something I love on those calls too is just getting to know who's out there, who's looking for help. It helps me develop my, my coaching structure a little more to fit the need. And something I do that a lot of people don't know is If I'm not the right fit for somebody, I typically send them resources to do it on their own or I connect them with someone who is a better fit because I believe that's part of the rising tide, which you and I talked about in another conversation.

I think it's really important. So I highly encourage people to do that. I love doing those calls and In the future, I do, I am working on a book. I just wrote the rough draft on my first writer's retreat this last weekend. I'm very excited about, so keep an eye out for that and there'll be some other things in the next year that I'm coming out with that I'm really excited to share with, with people in this space that are, that are interested.

Sounds good.

Michael: I appreciate it, man.

Bates: Yeah. And thank you for having me. It's, it's been great. I'm glad that we connected and I always enjoy our talks. Sounds

Michael: good. Me too. Thanks, man.

Bates: Bye, Michael. Bye. See you guys.

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